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Thread for those who loved the movie

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by The Last Deadeye, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    I saw this posted the other day and it's a fitting response for people who nitpick fight choreography in The Last Jedi.
    [​IMG]
    Although that does create an interest "what if" scenario if Luke decapitates Vader before the grand reveal does Luke ever find out that Vader was his father.

    I guess it goes to show that if you love something you can spend your time finding things to love, but that also works the other way around. The internet makes it easy to nitpick things now because there's always an audience for it.
     
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  2. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Clone Commander

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    I loved TLJ, and I am a hardcore EU/Legends fan. I found the philosophy of “what does it mean to be a Jedi?”, and should the “Jedi end?” to be the most poignant discussion of the Force since ESB. I particularly liked Yoda’s scene, and his quote, “we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.”
     
    #1022 Kato Sai, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
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  3. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    The Last Jedi really did a fantastic job one two call backs for Luke that was just the perfect amount of nostalgia.

    First was the call back to Leia's message for Obi-Wan. R2 has taken a back seat in this trilogy with the introduction of BB-8, but that scene with him and Luke is so great. Luke the broken old Jedi and R2 his longtime droid friend who has been with the Skywalkers from the beginning.

    Secondly the moment with Yoda is amazing. Luke's old master Yoda was funny, wise, and terrifically performed by Frank Oz. I love how he calls Luke "young Skywalker." His laughter as he burns down the tree cracks me up and I agree about his quote.
     
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  4. StardustSoldier

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    Just wanted to chime in and say that I too really enjoyed the film. Among other things, I liked that this is the first time we’ve ever had a sequel take place immediately after the previous film. And the whole thing was one giant chase, which gave things a sense of urgency and immediacy. Snoke and Hux were also a lot of fun. And the film felt unexpected in many ways, which I also enjoyed. Snoke’s death was definitely the most shocking moment for me; did not see that one coming.

    The darker take on Luke’s character is another thing I appreciated. It tied well into the movie’s theme of overcoming failure, no matter how catastrophic.
     
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  5. FastestKnight

    FastestKnight Force Sensitive

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    The problem with the choreography (which is fine in the Crait battle) is that in the Throne room not only did the guards have a million oportunities to kill either Rey or Ben, but most of them were also doing nothing (or doing anime poses) at the back while just one or two of them were attacking the Force users. That is bad choreography.

    If you claim an almost 40 year old movie (and the New Hope choreography was even worse) did it bad too, and that no one complained, in order to justify it, then there is a problem.

    The same goes with most of the criticism like Snoke or Phasma (which I didn't mind) just because the Emperor didn't have a backstory or just because Boba Fett didn't have a character in the 80s, doesn't mean a 2015/2017 movie couldn't improve it.

    The thing is, these decisions weren't arbitrary. No one complained at the time about this, so if it isn't broken....
     
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  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    The problem with all but like two lightsaber fights in all of Star Wars, is they are poorly choreographed fights usually retroactively changed to have different meanings or excuses when the truth is, they are mostly used to convey emotion and theme rather than *actual* fight choreography. The best lightsaber duel in terms of *actual* choreography is Obi-Wan vs Maul in Rebels. Because that's how most fights with a laser sword would actually go.

    No one is using what happened in Empire as an "excuse" just using it to point out the ridiculous levels people will go to hate on TLJ for no really valid reason. Star Wars is pulp. Just like Indiana Jones. It's why no one used to give a hoot about the errors in those films like they do now.

    Snoke and Phasma aren't important to the story. They just aren't. Their backstory is 100000% superfluous to the events of this trilogy. Adding it in would be nothing but bloat to the film. Just like the Emperor's backstory wasn't important. Sure they could have added it in either film, but it would be pointless and do nothing to further the narrative being told in this film.

    Now let's take your actual complaint about the choreography into consideration.

    There are 8 Praetorian Guards in the scene.

    Here all 8 attacking at once, seconds after Snoke is killed
    guards.png

    throneroom1.png

    We have about 6.5 in frame right now seconds into the fight.

    throneroom2.png

    Now we are down to 7. Most still in frame just obscured by the rest. The ones on the far left just moved out of the way or Rey's lightsaber and now run back to her.

    throneroom2.5.png

    Ren's turn. Takes out another guard, dropping us down to 6. It's cut but there are at least 5 guards visible in this shot.

    throneroom4.png

    Ren disables two guards that were attacking him simultaneously as the kill he had.

    throneroom5.png

    Rey battling two guards.

    throneroom6.png

    Rey wounds a guard, getting to a 1 v 1 fight. Our first of the whole fight.

    throneroom7.png

    No time wasted. Down to 5.

    throneroom8.png

    Cut to Ren vs 3.

    throneroom9.png

    And another one down. 4 left.

    throneroom10.png

    Ren squares off with 3 guards...again after it shows Rey vs 1. He cuts that dude's head right off. Down to 3.

    throneroom11.png

    Ren disarms one of the two guards he is fighting and we are down to 2 guards left after this kill.


    So now we are finally down to each only fighting one guard. At no point in the battle do they stop for posing. You could, at best, argue for one guard being unaccounted for in all frames of the shot if you want to nitpick it to death but it's also easy to call it one of the non-lethally wounded guards earlier in the fight, but within seconds all living guards are accounted for again. And at no point did they really have a "million" opportunities to kill either. The best argument for that is the edit on the knife at the end when Rey kills the Night Kin...I mean guard.

    So, unless you saw a different cut of this fight where there were: A) more than 8 guards or B) completely different attacks......methinks there might be some bias in your assessment of the choreography.
     

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  7. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    the fight can definitely be critiqued: the one guard who is holding Rey by the saber and doing absolutely nothing with his left hand/arm is a bit of a head scratcher, but clearly the director was aware of it and therefore cropped the scene so as to minimize the distraction.

    but this is more to the point:
    obviously if you're nitpicking the fight, you aren't invested in it for any number of reasons and that's fine. its not going to work for everyone.
    but at the end of the day, this is swashbuckling. it's supposed to be overdramatic and flashy and the technique isn't the point except in what it conveys about the characters. people who continue to critique Star Wars by any other standard than pulp science fantasy, will always always always be disappointed.
     
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  8. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Agreed. Which is why it's silly to critique those things about TLJ when it's been in Star Wars forever. They just didn't happen to like this specific instance of it.
    It's the same way when people critique certain aspects of Indiana Jones. It's very clear what inspires Spielberg and Lucas.
     
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  9. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    It's one of the greatest moments in Star Wars history.
    Once you start nitpicking scenes like this in Star Wars I'm not sure there's a way back.
     
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  10. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    There really isn't because it's all about admitting something just isn't for you, which is a difficult thing to do when you grew up on it.

    It was difficult for me to "get over" the prequels, it wasn't until we were getting "new" Star Wars I was able to really move beyond my personal objections with the films. But once you can admit to yourself, this Star Wars isn't for you and you just wait for the next batch....things get better.
     
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  11. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Would it be more accurate to acknowledge there really is no critique you will see as valid if you love the movie? Because honestly, the arguments against nitpicking (in this instance) fight choreography could equally apply to any other aspect of SW.

    And more specifically (as it applies to TLJ) there is no critique (among the myriad that exist) from which the movie hasn't been defended vigorously. Having been on here before and after the movie, there is not one critique that has not been characterized as invalid. What has been offered instead (usually) begins with the preamble "you may not have liked it but..."

    If we really can't critique an aspect of the movie we didn't like, then it seems no one can (for any SW movie)
     
  12. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    it's not that you can't critique it, it's that if your enjoyment of said film hinges on a set of criteria which it has no intention or desire to meet, then you are wasting your time. it's like saying: this hot dog doesn't taste like a hamburger and therefore it's bad. it's also saying: this hot dog is processed meat junk food, therefore it's bad.

    1.) judging a hot dog for not being a hamburger makes absolutely no sense. go get a hamburger.
    2.) yes, it's processed meat junk food and it's bad. it's a hot dog. what'd you expect?

    which is not to say there aren't hot dogs that rise above.
    but again, if it's just a hot dog and people are criticizing it for not being on enjoyment steroids, that's well, kind of a personal problem.

    i am perfectly happy with my hot dog plain on a bun with mustard.
    if it comes with a side of chips and pickles, that's awesome too.
    i could still critique the bun (it's soggy! it's crumbly!), or the mustard (too spicy! too runny!), or anything else about it, but the essential thing doesn't change.

    light saber fights in Star Wars have always been choreographed for the dramatic, not the realistic. that's an essential thing.
    as mentioned above, Maul vs. Obi Wan is literally the only saber fight in all of Star Wars that even comes close. Vader vs. Obi Wan is a second, and look how a fan remade it so that it would be more dramatic instead of looking like two old men poking each other with sticks.
    i don't think we don't need the fight redone. because it doesn't change the outcome in the slightest and the outcome is what's important.

    Star Wars is a great hot dog to me. : D
     
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  13. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    There's a clear difference between criticizing a film and nitpicking.
    If people don't like how Luke was portrayed, didn't like Crait, or Finn's arc... I get it. I don't agree with it, but those are natural opinions.

    Criticizing Empire Strikes Back because Luke should have cut off Vader's head would be nitpicking.
     
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  14. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    While I follow your logic, I don't think it closes completely. I realize I am invoking Star Wars' version of Godwin's law but so be it, if I applied your logic elsewhere to the franchise it could be said (for example) "you can't critique the Jar Jar Binks character because Lucasfilm had no intention or desire to have him seen as a serious element in SW". It completely overlooks the fact that in concept, Jar Jar was just a bad idea. What they intend can still end up being a bad idea (see curmudgeon Luke). And I'd argue we can critique that legitimately.

    Isn't this kind of side stepping the issue though? Even if we were to accept your premise light saber fights have always been choreographed for the dramatic

    1. TLJ departs from SW traditions in many ways already. In light of that, I would think it'd be difficult to argue that they can't depart from tradition in how they approach fight choreography
    2. There's no reason why a SW light saber duel can't be dramatic AND logically coherent

    I don't think there's an argument that works that says, as long as a SW duel conveys drama, it's exempt from critique (and I say this as someone who hasn't critiqued the throne room fight sequence myself).

    There's a clear difference in their definitions, I don't think that's true of their applications. I mean, who would you say gets to decide if something is small, unimportant, and/or unnecessary when it comes to a critique?
     
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  15. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    actually, that proves my point. the fact of Jar Jar existing at all makes perfect sense in the world of Star Wars (that's the hot dog). the fact of him being distractingly annoying and potentially a racist steretype is all spicy mustard and soggy bun.

    you can say the same for lightsaber fights: all Star Wars lightsaber fights are character drama, not reality (hot dog). the lightsaber fight in RoTS isn't any less so than any other lightsaber fight, but the fact that it goes on for far too long to meet its inevitable conclusion may try your patience (pure spicy mustard). when you say the lightsaber fight choreography in TLJ isn't realisitic, you're nitpicking against the essential thing. is there something outside of what it's designed to do/be that isn't nitpicking?

    they can. not they will or should.

    of course not! but see no. 1 above. : D

    again, nothing is exempt from criticism. that was the first thing i typed.
    my point is that criticizing a piece of art/film/whatever for not being something it clearly has no intention of being is a waste of time, effort, and energy.
     
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  16. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    I would assume since around 90% of people who saw TLJ liked it and most people who dislike it aren't looking at each frame of the film that the number of people who think the thrown room scene was "bad choreography" is extremely small. It's one of those things you find on the internet.
     
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  17. Palpatine was Framed

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    That is pretty much at the heart of it. When you put any film under this same microscope, you can find just about any flaw you want. This is one more example in an ocean of examples of a perceived flaw in The Last Jedi that could be made with the other Star Wars films, or most fictional films in general.

    There is criticizing. Then there is nitpicking. Then there is firing up your torch, grabbing your canteen and compass, and going on a globe trotting expedition to find things to complain about. That's where we are now.
     
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  18. Maximus

    Maximus Jedi General

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    thoroughly enjoying the convo that's gone on over the weekend about the lazer sword fight choreography :)

    i need a hot dog now though. thanks a lot @FN-3263827 !!! :D
     
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  19. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    And I think you are making my point here. The mustard and bun are an aspect of the hot dog, but your position is apparently that I cannot critique it without it being nitpicking because, overall, it only ever intended to be was food, not a good hot dog.

    The hot dog is designed to be food. But if I critique it because the mustard is too spicy or the bun is soggy, I'm nitpicking because ultimately it's designed to be food. This flow of logic is what I am saying is problematic. You are saying nothing is beyond critique, but imposing a condition where effectively no critique is possible without it being nitpicking (i.e. intent absolves execution). And what I'm saying is, it can be food AND good, and that it can be critiqued against intent AND execution.

    You can find just about any virtue and attribute as well. Let's be honest here, the same way people probably didn't notice all the flaws of the movie on their first view, people didn't notice all the symbolism, foreshadowing, and mirroring on their first view. It's only in further viewing with greater scrutiny that many of the things that amplify or diminish our appreciation for a work begin to stand out. If you are allowed to rewatch a movie and appreciate it more based on you picking up new aspects, others can rewatch that movie and have less appreciation based on them picking up on holes, inconsistencies, incoherence they didn't see before.
     
  20. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    imperfect hot dog analogy aside, the point still stands.

    honestly (and i mean this with all sincerity): what's the point of complaining about a bad hot dog you ate two years ago? the vendor isn't giving you your money back. you can't uneat it. and you can't fix it. so...you're just going to complain to complain? to try to convince other people not to buy from the vendor? to rub it in the face of other people enjoying their hot dogs that you think that what they're eating is horrid? what's the point? what do you gain from it? i honestly have never pursued anything disagreeable to the depths which i have seen people pursue Star Wars issues (literally since ESB).

    [​IMG]
     
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