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TLJ and the "New Coke"

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Shadowblade, Jun 5, 2018.

?

Did TLJ make you more or less enthusiastic for SW in general?

  1. Less enthusiastic for SW

    31 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. More enthusiastic for SW

    19 vote(s)
    30.6%
  3. No change

    12 vote(s)
    19.4%
  1. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    Forgive me, but my perspective from that movie is all I can give. When you mentioned that Ironman 3 was so different, I could see your point and reflect. But it did not feel much different to me when I saw it. I felt the whole PTSD was a plot device soon abondoned, superfiscial, not in any way near the real cases I see or making Stark that much different in total. Perhaps I could be more perceptive...but what you read is the truth of my experience with it. Would you like me to tell you otherwise?
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 6, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 6, 2018 ---
    I will remember that once I get myself to the cinema for Infinity War. It's second on my list after Deadpool.
     
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  2. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Fair enough!

    And I don't think that's a spoiler or anything. I mean heck, look at Stark in Iron Man 2 (totally against the government controlling his tech) and Civil War (literally throwing punches in support of superhero regulation). Dude changed a lot over just, in that case, seven years. Heroes adapt and change, and not always for the better.

    Anyway, enjoy! Infinity War was great, and I've heard good things about Deadpool as well!
     
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  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    But they never abandoned it.
    It played a huge role in Age of Ultron. That's not an opinion. It played a direct line in his quest for unmanned patrolling of the world with the Ultron project. It played in his fears when Scarlet Witch messed with his head.
    Again, it's the fact that you dismiss PTSD as small, when he's having breakdowns at lunch because of a child's drawing.
    That's not little. It's subtle and it isn't losing an eye, but it isn't little.

    If you don't think PTSD is a big deal, then fine. Whatever. You just won't get it. It's a side of fictional heroes never discussed. It wasn't sunshine and rainbows for Tony.
     
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  4. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I think IM3 and TLJ have some comparisons, but are far from the same magnitude of impact to their respective franchises. Mandarin would be Snoke and Luke would be Stark, but as much as IM3 was a let down (full disclosure, one of 2 movies I walked out of and I never seen the whole thing start to finish, MoS is the other. In both cases it was my son who wanted out), it didn't have anything that would echo through the rest of the franchise in the same way TLJ would. Stark also wasn't creepy. Also, as you mentioned, we get to see Stark's progression. With Luke, if you only watch the movies, there isn't much there to explain what he's doing. Add that Leia and Han were mostly the same, it's like Luke the did the life changes for all 3 in that span of time.

    I'm not arguing if it's possible or not, I'm arguing that RJ didn't earn it. JJ and RJ didn't earn changes with Han or Leia either, but maybe that's why they stayed mostly consistent with their OT characters. Luke is really the only character who's had significant change, and that change made his character for the first 2/3rds of the movie unrecognizable to many.

    My opinion, for what it's worth, is that if RJ meant to do those changes to Luke, he should have had a prequel to TFA and then after he does TLJ so Luke earns the change.
     
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  5. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

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    You see I disagree I feel it did diminish the story in both cases. I felt the directors put so much emphasis on the subversion that it took me out of the film and lessened the human story that they were going for.

    While watching Iron Man 3 and the reveal of the mandarin happened, it didn't feel part of the same film, I felt like I was watching a spoof comedy sketch dropped into the middle of the film, it was so jarring that I never felt engaged with film from that point on. The comedic reveal overpowers the rest of the film and so any subtleties of it been a film about Tony Stark putting himself back together get lost in the mix.

    It was a similar problem with the Last Jedi for me. for me the way the way the did Luke didn't feel natural. I'm not talking about this isn't the Luke I remember or anything, it just lacked any subtly at all and was regularly handled in a comedic tone. I mean the lightsaber toss moment would not have felt out of place if it had been recorded a comedic sketch poking fun at peoples expectations for that moment. and even if you take the comedic style of the moment, the continuity and lack of subtly of Having Luke standing they're looking wistful in full Jedi robes, then basically runs off to get changed in too all black, goes off to sea milk cow while pulling while pulling a comedic face. It's all very in your face, for me again that overemphasis on trying to shock and subvert the audience overshadows the story of Luke been broken and basically given up. You also have to take into account the rest of the story, which felt like it was trying to put a twist or subversion in every 5 mins. From Leia dead no shes not, to Kylo's gonna turn good no he's not, Holdo's incompetent/coward or no she's not, Del Toros a good guy no he's bad guy, Luke there ow no he's a projection so he survived ow wait no he's dead.... it was constant and its really hard to keep a human story like feel in those circumstances, its bound to get overshadowed by all the twists.

    I think you are spot on about what people wanted going in. And you have to praise both directors for having the balls to go against that because straight away from the start you're fighting an uphill battle because people wanted one thing and you're offering them something different and so that something different has to be better then what they wanted. Thier is no two ways about it that are brave filmmaking! Unfortunately, been brave isn't enough, and for many people, they felt what they wanted from the film was better then what the director gave them.

    With Iron Man 3, people wanted to see the great actor Ben Kingsley play this Iconic character that had looks so awesome in the trailer and throughout the first act of the film. So when the comedic reveal was made, it left people feeling disappointed that they didn't get to see that, and felt that what they got wasn't as good as what they were teased with.

    It's was an even bigger uphill struggle with the Last Jedi, you've got to remember, there are literally millions of people like myself out there who have been dreaming of getting to go on an adventure with Mark Hamill playing Luke Skywalker Jedi Master, people who have been reading stories about it for decades, and when this trilogy was announced seeing Luke back on screen as a fully fledged Jedi Master was pretty much the number one thing fans were excited about seeing. So not going this route and killing Luke off so that fans who have wanted to see that kind of story for over 3 decades will now NEVER get to see that, was always going create at best a huge amount of disappointment that the film had to overcome and at worse the unbridled anger that we have unfortunately seen since the film's release.
    You also had a whole host of new fans that the Force Awakens created, that had been left on a cliffhanger for two years. So having the first thing he does is toss the lightsaber over his head in a comedic way was always going to be deflating after such a long build up. Especially when you couple it with the huge onscreen build up to who Rey was, just to reveal she was no one and might have known it all along. Even a lot people, like myself who went in expecting and Rey to be no-one and like the symbolism of a nobody been the person force chooses to take down someone from what is now the grand lineage of the Skywalker's, where left feeling a bit flat, just because there was so much on-screen build up. Which is all part of the subversion tactics I guess, build something up then give a rather mundane answer, but that combined with Luke subversion and the more use of subversion in the way Snoke was handled. Just constantly building people up to then pull the rug out beneath then or provide a mundane answer was always going to be a divisive tactic, which is what we have seen.

    Playing with people dreams and hopes for a property that is so loved, was always going to incredibly tricky to pull off, many people feel they did pull it off, but many people feel they didn't and feel that what they got was a missed opportunity if they hadn't used the film to subvert expectations.

    I do completely agree with you on the studio overriding Shane Blacks original wishes though.
     
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  6. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    Cadbury's Creme Eggs and Kit Kat chocolate recipes were also altered under their new foreign ownership to save money and earn more profit. Their once delicious chocolate recipes are now different to what they used to be, tasting cheap and unpleasant. So I can't eat them any longer, which makes me feel cheated, saddened, nostalgic and angry towards the new owners of these once traditional brands.

    Star Wars too has has had its recipe altered. . . .
     
    #26 SKB, Jun 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
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  7. Darth Garth

    Darth Garth Rebel General

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    I agree, but new and fresh can still exist in the perameters established within the galaxy far far away. As an example; look at the KOTOR video games, they were fresh and new at the time, but still adhered to the rules established, we didn't need a complete overhaul to have something great.
     
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  8. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    When I was young we had Tizer. They modernised the taste before I was born. They then decided to take it back to the original recipe. It was disgusting I spat it out. So sometimes originals are not always the best. Not sure why I shared that with you all but there you go! :)
     
  9. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    For sure, if anything I'll die on the hill that the first KOTOR game actually may have played it too safe, great as it still is.

    Take a look at KOTOR II, though. Much less popular, and also far more bizarre. A very subversive game whose view of the force probably more closely echoes TLJ than most other Star Wars properties we've seen. A game that tore away the black and white, and submersed us in the grey. And, a game that featured pretty heavily the idea that the Force doesn't belong to the Jedi and the Sith alone. KOTOR didn't necessarily break rules, per se, but rather too the time to show the player that their preconceptions about various aspects of the galaxy may have more complex answers than they might have originally anticipated.

    Overall, KOTOR is the more palatable title because, in many cases, it feels like alternate universe A New Hope. You've got a princess, a rogue, a wookiee, two droids, bounty hunters, a battlestation... sure, there were definitely deviations, but it still tended to play it pretty close to the chest. KOTOR II is, in my opinion, the better game because it chooses to do something truly original.

    Though both are still absolute pinnacles of Star Wars storytelling and gaming, of course.
     
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  10. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    I am sure you are correct that it played a part, but I can't even remember it even though I watched that movie. I have to admit I watch Marvel for entertainment, I'm not really invested in the character's stories or personalities. (except Spiderman/Peter Parker, and somewhat Thor. I'd say Black Widow too, but I really think that is just Scarlet's gorgoeus leatherclad nether parts that peaks my interest)

    I'm not saying that PTSD isn't a big deal, quite on the contrary. Compared to real life I felt it was portrayed unrealistic and superfiscial..... But, that's marvel for you, didn't expect anything else.
     
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  11. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Expound please, and leave your weird anti-Marvel boner at the door.
    How was it unrealistic?
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 7, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 7, 2018 ---
    I bookmarked this for later but I cant reply in full like this thought out post clearly was at the moment. Intrigued to dive in
     
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  12. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Solo disproved that theory...
     
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  13. Fearghas_Ajax

    Fearghas_Ajax Force Sensitive

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    No, it didn't do was well as the others. But at the end of the day, LFL, Disney, and Marvel are still in the black I would think.
     
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  14. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I guess for me, it didn't over power anything because, why would it? He still has to find the real Mandarin and realizing he's been chasing a ghost this whole time. Ten Rings, The Mandarin...

    The Mandarin is iconic but incredibly outdated and one giant stereotype left in Hollywood's past. Making fun of it is the right way to do it.
    In Doctor Strange they took a much more serious approach with a similar role, The Ancient One, and cast Tilda Swinton in the role. Instead of people being happy they ousted an outdated relic character and cast an incredibly talented woman in the role, people were just mad calling it white washed. It's clear that no matter how that sort of role is handled, it's going to upset people. I have no problem with the Mandarin twist.

    They told a better story than some fan wish-fulfillment stuff. Sorry that isn't what you wanted but it was plain and simple a better story to tell. If Luke was the omnipotent being that some apparently expected him to be, it's boring as hell and doesn't explain how the FO had the ability to grow as that Luke would have snuffed them out and it doesn't explain where he was in TFA. If your problem with TLJ is Luke, then blame TFA not TLJ. TFA is the movie that left Luke out and secluded him on that island out of the fight. There's only one way for that to go.

    Honestly reading this, it sounds like more of your problems are with TFA than TLJ.
     
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  15. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    They survived 'Lone Ranger' and 'John Carter' alright. 'Solo' will probably be a loss, but not close to the biggest they've seen in recent years.
     
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  16. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Solo will probably do really well on home video/VOD/rentals as well.
    It has solid word of mouth but not enough to take viewers from other juggernauts.
    it won't lose as much as people think and it won't hurt that bad coming off TFA, R1 and TLJ
     
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  17. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I don't think he's saying he was chomping at the bit to see the Mandarin on the big screen. He was excited to see Sir Ben Kingsley as an earnestly threatening antagonist in the story. He could have been called 'The Orange' for all it mattered. It was more the bait-and-switch that was disappointing. I think that's a valid criticism.
     
  18. Viper78

    Viper78 Rebel Official

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    I'm not any less enthusiastic about Star Wars as I went to see SOLO on opening night and loved it.

    TLJ has however made me less enthusiastic about Episode 9 although it won't stop me seeing it opening night.
     
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  19. ZDTemplar

    ZDTemplar Rebel Trooper

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    hmm. John Carter had a budget of $250mil, and Lone Ranger $215. Both made around $260-$280mil. With Solo's reshoots, it has a significantly higher budget than that, and will earn probably around the same. It may break $300mil, but not by much.

    I'd say this would be Disney's biggest flops of the last 15 years, no?
     
  20. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I could accept that more than Championing this guy
    the-mandarin.jpg

    as a touchstone villain we need(ed) in 2013.
     
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