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TLJ and the "New Coke"

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Shadowblade, Jun 5, 2018.

?

Did TLJ make you more or less enthusiastic for SW in general?

  1. Less enthusiastic for SW

    31 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. More enthusiastic for SW

    19 vote(s)
    30.6%
  3. No change

    12 vote(s)
    19.4%
  1. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    You have to consider how profitable their other contemporary projects were at that time though. They didn't have such consistent massive box office earners to offset that sort of loss like they do now. The singular hit might be bigger, but far less resonant in the larger scope. What do I know though :)
    A 'faithful' translation of the character? Yeah, probably not the best of ideas. Reinterpreting him instead as a sort of Bin Laden figure though, that had some potential. Or maybe it would have just been distasteful to a whole other culture. Who can say?
     
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  2. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Two out of three aint bad. Disney as a whole is fine... mainly because... Marvel is a champ amongst other things having just laid $3.3 billion in revenue at the Mouse's feet with another movie in July to go. That pays for a lot of Lucasfilm mistakes.

    But make no mistake. Lucasfilm is not in the Black on Solo. Its in the deep red with no end to the losses in sight. Its quite possible the carnage from TLJ that cascaded into a direct hit on Solo, will continue to do so with 9. The toy sales have been a disaster. The blu-rays for TLJ have underperformed. Every possible outlet is getting hit by damage from the Billion Dollar Boondoggle.

    It is not a fun time over at Lucasfilm.

    But Hey... Rainy is sure having fun calling the fans 'manbabies' on Twitter, amrite! WTG Rainy... keep um coming pal! Don't you have a 'trilogy' you want made that you want these same 'manbabies' to go pay to see? Looking less and less likely every day you spew invective!

    And they don't get to count previous films when evaluating their latest.. which makes mushroom clouds look tiny. This will likely get worse before it gets better.
     
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  3. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    Calling Marvel easy entertainment is my prerogative.

    To elaborate: Simply because the PTSD Stark showed seemed nothing like the real thing to me. The trauma is often combined with helplessness, or a missed opportunity to resolve the trauma or deal with the situation at hand. Example sexual abuse, rape, attacks by an unknown intruder where the case is never settled, wars where the individual soldier has little control of the events....cops sent to search underwater for that one misisng person...finding him in the dark all decomposed in a cramped tunnel in a watery grave...getting stuck with him, panicking and barely surviving. Going on to see that the case never was resolved either, despite pulling that body out. None of that was very apparent from the avenger ending...real life usually tops comic films. In avgenger the crisis was solved, very competent and powerful was action taken by Tony. He basically saved the day. If intense threat to his life/person was enough, he should have been a shell halfway through IronMan 1, after Ironman 2 for sure. It felt light and to be quicly discarded as the plot needed, suddenly just shaking the main symptoms off In my experience that process takes years once it is established. It was used mainly in a comic way, as his dialouge with the kid. Which is Marvel's way, in my opinion. It doesn't take itself too seriously, and neither do I.
     
  4. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Force Sensitive

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    That "manbabies" tweet was in responce to one (ONE!) person, trolling another account. It's not what he calls fans in general. Keep your facts straight.

     
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  5. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    As we've covered this subject 81,622 times now, let's move on before someone calls it "bashing", shall we??
     
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  6. Fearghas_Ajax

    Fearghas_Ajax Force Sensitive

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    I do not work there but if i were to guess, day to day life at LFL is pretty much carring on as normal as normal is. I have no idea what Solo's production cost is but Solo is still in theaters, then there will be DVD and paid tv. To define red or black at the moment for one film is kinda mute at the moment when its not finished but if I had to guess LFL is in the black. The are batting 3 home runs vs one non home run. The more you play the game the less chance you will hit a home run every time. I think the ones that the make the big bucks at LFL and Disney know that. Just my guess as I don't work for either company.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 7, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 7, 2018 ---
    Not quite. "Mars needs Moms" had a budget of 150M and only brought in 39M. Solo definitely is the least performing Star Wars.
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    It is, but in this sort of conversation when you blanket say that you don't like Marvel, it makes it difficult to take anything you say seriously regarding the content without some sort of inherent bias to what is being discussed.

    ptsd.png

    Let's see here.
    He's agitated easily in it. He's irritable. Hostile. Hypervigilance is putting it lightly. Self destructive? You bet. Isolation? He certainly does his best to separate himself from Pepper and Rhodes most of the time.

    Does he have flashbacks, fear and anxiety? Oh big time.

    Guilt? Through the damn roof. Enough to make a guy create an AI that ends up trying to overthrow humanity.

    Insomnia and nightmares? Double checkmark.

    See, he actually does display it pretty damn accurately.

    The first time you see Tony post-Avengers is in Iron Man 3. And he's clearly messed up.

    Exactly. It's lose-lose at times to try and bring these older characters to life.
     
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  8. ZDTemplar

    ZDTemplar Rebel Trooper

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    oh jeez I forgot about that...."movie" lol
     
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  9. Fearghas_Ajax

    Fearghas_Ajax Force Sensitive

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    Don't guess its a bad thing that you did! lol
     
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  10. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Its just not a fun time over at Lucasfilm. After TFA release? I'll bet they had serious fun.

    Its at least $400 million, between budget(had to be made twice) and advertising, and thats just the amount they've pretty much admitted to. They lost so much money, simply trying to explain to fans why they were wrong about TLJ as part of the ramp up for Solo :/. I mean, there were wall-to-wall web articles and everything... don't the fans understand this is a GREAT FILM? Lol.

    13 days in and Solo has made $273 million. Apparently.. no.

    No need to guess. Even the trades won't carry Disney's water here, and are up front that there is no way Disney isn't in the red on Solo. It is what it is :/.

    One home run, a solid double, a ground-rule double where the batter threw out his hamstring rounding first, and a strikeout. In that order.

    And non-home run... that's an interesting way of not having to say strikeout.

    Oh hey... how could we forget.. there is always Mars Needs Moms.
     
  11. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

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    Thank you that's very polite :) and thank you for coming up with a good well-mannered and well thought out response. I hope I can repay in kind.
    for me it did because it was such a shift, it felt like the film basically stopped and went into a Saturday night live sketch, it's hard to really come back from that and take anything else in the film seriously.

    You see in many ways I agree with you here. I don't want to ever be on the side of Hollywood whitewashing. I guess while I feel differently here, is because the hired Ben Kingsley, who did such a selling the character as menacing and just looking badass in the trailer and in the first half of the movie, that it managed to carry you past those stereotypes and people just wanted to see him be a cool villain. Then you get the comedy sketch reveal, then the mandarin ends up been a white guy anyway, except not as menacing.
    I'm with you totally on the Dr Strange one, if they had just hired a sort of wise old looking Asian man(or woman) to do the role it would have been very cliche and stereotyping and I have to believe that is why they went the direction they did.

    This is completely subjective, you feel it was a better story to tell. which is, of course, a completely valid point of view because taste is subjective. I obviously don't feel it was the best story to tell and feel that the way it was told, so heavily reliant on subverting expectations without any hint of subtlety overshadowed any human story regarding Luke.

    I'm not going to sit here and say you have to do this because the fans wanted it that way, but equally, I feel writing a script that's the main agenda seems to be subverting fan expectations is even worse than writing a script that's just fan service. Both ways are putting expectations before storytelling. and their no two ways about it Johnson wrote this script to play with fan expectations, this film does not work if you don't have expectations to subvert going into it.

    Of course, you could have gone the other way and done a completely awful movie playing to every fan theory and expectation going. So you should never let expectations dictate how you write a film. For me Johnson did let expectations dictate his film, he just decided to subvert them rather than pandering to them. And for me, the story suffered for that.

    *disclaimer i'm aware this next bit will sound a bit soppy/daft and is more of an emotional argument than a factual one so feel free to ignore it/mock me for it*
    It also feels a bit mean to play with fan expectations like that. Look 30 years ago I was a kid bouncing around my living room pretending I was Jedi Master luke skywalker on an adventure. It just makes me sad that the opportunity was there to show people like me, and there are millions of us, something we have dreamed of seeing for decades, and someone uses that opportunity to not only not show us that but do a 180 and subvert those dreams and expectations and Kill them off so we will now never ever see it. For me that that feels a little cold and while it is only a film makes me a bit sad.

    And if you are going to do that you have to give us something pretty sensational to make up for it, and my personal opinion was the last Jedi was not that.

    Your omnipotent comment is a good point. It's true that you make a character in your film/story too powerful it becomes boring and hard to create any sense of danger. It's something Johnson has spoken about well and interestingly in his interviews. But you can do a Jedi Master who isn't all powerful, we've seen that in the prequels, but I agree if they had gone with an all-powerful Luke (like a lot of fans wanted) then it would have been awful, but there is a middle ground.

    It would be fair to say, I have quite a few problems with The Last Jedi not just Luke, maybe if I had liked the rest of the film more I would have been more forgiving of the use of Luke. Unfortunately, my feelings for the rest of the film are quite similar to my feelings on the use of Luke, that been shocks and subversions too often took preference over the story.

    I also have other issues that we won't get into as we would be here forever... which we might be anyway :p

    in retrospect, I do think The force awakens causes issues for the Last Jedi, Keeping Luke out of the Movie, even further builds up the hype to see Luke on screen again, which had already built up for 30 years. So making a film that one of the key points of which was to find him definitely exaggerated the hype, which without doubt gave Rian Johnson a bit of a mountain to climb, though personly I don't think he did himself any favours going the vaguely comedic grumpy hermit route before killing him.

    I do disagree that what they did was the ONLY way they could of gone. in the whole world of storytelling you honestly telling me, the only thing they could have done is what they did? That seems a bit close-minded, though I understand that is hard to look past the way a story is told if you love the way it was done.

    I had a great ride with the Force awakens, I won't pretend i don't wish that it wasn't quite as similar to A New Hope as it is, or that they basically re-set the universe to what it was before a New Hope, but I had fun with it and completely understand why Disney went the way they did with that film. A lot of people hated the prequels and they wanted to bring back what people remember about the original trilogy, X wings vs Tie fighters, rebellion vs empire, A hero from a desert planet, a Masked villain and evil disinformed Emporer, Disney wanted to do a greatest hits-style film and it was a lot of fun. They also did enough to set up the future with some great new characters, cool mysterious and a killer cliffhanger. So my qualms were minimal(though while i still enjoy the Force Awakens my love for that film has diminished since the release of the Last jedi). My main concern was that they didn't know what they were going to do next, that in the rush to get the Force awakens out they hadn't worked out what happens next. What to do with Luke been one of those not fully thought out plans.

    I guess there are two ways of looking at it though, 1, it gave Rian Johnson freedom to do what he liked and answer these mysterious and plots any way he chose, or 2, he was lumbered with all these open threads that had no answers that he had to figure out what to do with, before he could tell his story.

    I do think Rian Johnson had a really hard job but setting out to subvert expectations and building a film around that.... well he made the job for himself 10 times harder, and it was going to be basically impossible to not do an incredibly divisive film with that kind of mentality. And like we saw with iron man 3, its proved to be very marmite people love it or hate it.

    I guess in both cases what I wanted was just a good story and in both cases, i felt the subversions got in the way. With the Last Jedi this was compounded by it being the only opportunity we where going to get to see an alive Luke Skywalker played by Mark Hamill again.
     
    #51 Mosley909, Jun 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
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  12. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

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    Yeah, this basically sums up my feelings.
     
  13. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    I personally enjoyed KOTOR II over the first one. I guess it because it had much cooler force powers.
     
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  14. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Oh for sure.

    At the time, I'd probably have said the first one was better, but KOTOR II takes some reflection to truly appreciate. I think out of all Star Wars games from that era (including my beloved Battlefronts), it may have aged the best.
     
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  15. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    But the team still won. Babe Ruth strikeout as well. In fact he lead the American League in strikeouts five times. Doesn't mean he's a bad baseball player.
     
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  16. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I understand the shift can be off putting but I still think it was a necessary moment of levity. After all, these movies are still for families and until then IM3 had been almost entirely serious. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. And I don't want to keep derailing from Star Wars much longer.

    You were never going to get Mark Hamill's Luke Skywalker doing the things you wanted him to do because George made the prequels not the sequels. The time to do those stories with Mark was in the late 80s or 90s. We still may get those movies with another actor or maybe even an animated series just of Luke's adventures voiced by Mark.

    There really was no other logical option for Luke to explain why he wouldn't be there to save the day unless he was just completely out of the picture. That's a plot thread from TFA. If he's on another adventure, he'd sense the destruction of the Hosnian System and be on SKB in the last act. But he wasn't. If you say his other mission was more important, you are just introducing another maguffin to worry about later that is likely less interesting for 85% of the audience outside of people who post on here.

    Subversion works because TFA was so similar...and so are all Star Wars films tbh. The two most unique Star Wars films are Empire and TLJ. The subversion is a necessary evil that has to happen to keep Star Wars fresh. If it becomes predictable and the same, the fandom becomes more and more insular. It becomes Star Trek. Which isn't bad but has a WILDLY smaller scope of fans than Star Wars does, especially post-TFA when "nerd culture" is suddenly the mainstream culture now.

    I don't think it's bad that the film is divisive. That's a good film because it took risks and chances. It didn't play it safe. It has depth and something to say. TFA, good as it is, says nothing beyond the surface level of: "Hey! Star Wars is back! Get excited!" And that's fine, but Star Wars should strive for more like it did before. And yeah JJ's mystery boxes are fine. He can't help himself. But they gave people expectations that could never be realistically be met. He just makes mystery boxes for the sake of them. He doesn't always intend for there to be a big reveal answer, he is just in love with the mystery box.



    Now this is a fine approach but it also creates expectations from fans and personally, it's not at all what I love about storytelling. Stories aren't mystery boxes like he says. They're stories. Some can be but not all are. He just turned EVERYTHING into a mystery box instead of a few things. That created this level of intrigue and mystery around so many things that really were never that interesting. It's a clever manipulation trick, he's done it on just about everything he works on. (Lost anyone?) But if you really watch TFA, the choices Rian makes on the "mysteries" of TFA are really the most obvious ones. Who is Snoke? The guy to be overthrown by the boy-king. Who is Rey? No one, she says so herself. Why was Luke gone? Because he was a Jedi over 55 and throwing the required temper tantrum and running off to hide. What else do Jedi of a certain age do? But we all just get it in our heads that Snoke HAS to be someone because the Emperor ended up being someone. Rey HAS to be someone because Luke ended up being someone. We were all waiting for the "I am your father" moment and it never came. There's no way they could have written in something like that without a billion thinkpieces coming out the next day titled "How The Last Jedi Tried to Clone Empire's 'Father' Reveal" or some dumb blast like that. What I would say to try and do, is remove the Star Wars shine from TLJ. Don't think of it as Luke Skywalker. Just think of it as an independent movie. It's a damn good story of loss, regret, fear, redemption and hope.

    The issue with the divisiveness for TLJ comes from the way some people are handling their anger. It's fine to not like it because we can have conversations like this and discuss it. However, as we've seen recently with Ms Tran, there are far too many people who are taking this too far and too seriously. It's a movie. It is just a movie. A singular movie out of 10. But I'm glad we can have this sort of back and forth on the matter regardless.
     
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  17. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Which team? Nobody won when it comes to the performance of Solo lol.

    Even the fans didn't, as there is likely 0 chance the film will now get a direct sequel. We still may see some of the characters in other stores, but probably not much more than that.
     
  18. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    I never said I did not like Marvel. But, to me it's light and fun entertainment, that is Marvel's strength. I don't take the interpersonal drama they introduce too seriously. It's not "A beautiful mind" or anything we are watching....we are watching the film adaptations of comic book heroes. The films are what they are, I don't expect or need anything more.

    Sure they check the symptom boxes, but it still didn't feel any more real then his electronic heart to me. Watch Mystic River or First Blood instead (or better, read the novel behind it) if you want to see a another depiction. If it's all good to you, I think I'm done discussing PTSD :)
     
  19. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    The Disney/LFM is the "team" im referring about it, SW as a whole. Solo lackluster performance isn't going to kill off SW. Don't play dumb, you know what i'm talking about. it's not a hard concept to understand. Why are you celebrating that Solo did bad? Why do you want SW to fail so bad? Do not want any more SW movies? If you get your wish that KK gets fired, how can you 100% be certain that the next person will do better? It's a possibility that the person could be even worse.
     
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  20. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Ya... they didn't win here. They don't win losing the studio hundreds of millions of dollars, and there is a good chance quite a few of them are already getting their LinkedIn's up-to-date, just in case. Nobody wants to say they worked on a bomb, and nobody(short of Ron Howard who knew coming in he was going to take one for 'the team') wants the black mark of having worked on the first SW bomb in history. A lot of things can be said, the one truism here is there are no winners with Solo.

    Not on its own, but this is for sure a major body blow. You've certainly lost a good segment of the audience that would normally make something like this profitable. They didn't show. They didn't pay. Thats just fact. This idea that hardcore fanboys(the ones where you could have two hours, 15min of simply the logo STAR WARS and it would be on par with TESB) have that the fans will show up for anything and make it profitable has just been proven wrong. Not only has it been proven wrong, but there is no guarantee you will get those fans back, just because you put out something called Episode 9.

    The thing to remember is that multi-track franchises are a very high risk endeavor that can both pay-off handsomely(Marvel), or can go sour fast if they implode. I know you're kind of desensitized to the numbers, but getting one of these multi-track investments going is a straight billion dollar investment up front before you ever see a dime. No ifs, ands, or buts. And remember, they already have two announced trilogies along with a TV series in the works. That's just money on top of money going out the door until a ship comes in.

    I'm being realistic about what occurred and trying to impart on you the gravity of the situation. Why are you treating it like a small bump in the road?

    I don't. Its doing *that* quite well on its own. I'm simply pointing that out so that ultimately something is done about it. Because they're waaaay beyond the point where they can do nothing.

    Of course I want more movies. But then... TLJ is barely a SW movie and I carry water for nobody. They either put out quality or get someone who can. I will not apologize for stuff like TLJ, or thats all you will ever get. Hollywood is trained to show you the same stuff over and over again until it stops selling. That's how they do. Why do you think their standard go-to is remakes and sequels?

    Until you hit them where it matters, the pocketbook, they'll simply keep status quo.

    Always possible. But since i'm not doing the hiring, thats on Disney. If they put in someone who is worse, expect the carnage to continue.

    I'm long past the point where this is ultra-personal for me and there isn't much I could do about it anyways. If they want to cheese off the audience and send it sailing into the night, well, Star Wars... we had a good run. It is what it is. I'm just sort of glad we did get TFA, before they decided to wreck it. Ultimately, I quite like that film have no reservations about saying so.
     
    #60 ScumAndVillainy, Jun 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
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