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SPECULATION TLJ Twist, Luke's Jedi Academy.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Dr. Kenobi, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. Dr. Kenobi

    Dr. Kenobi Rebelscum

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    ANH and TFA lie about some elements of the backstory.

    The big twist coming in The Last Jedi won't be who is related to whom. But what actually happened to destroy Luke's new Jedi Academy.

    Han Solo in TFA:
    "He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice... turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything"

    Obi Wan Kenobi in ANH:
    "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father."

    There couldn't be a clearer one-to-one statement, rewritten for the ST.

    I'm not sure exactly what Han does or doesn't know about the truth here, it may or may not be irrelevant. What does matter is that the text is deliberately misleading the audience. In ANH the big lie is that Darth Vader and Luke's father are two different people.

    While in TFA I believe that the big lie is what happened between Ben Solo and Luke, and by extension the new generation of Jedi.

    Please now go back and re-read what information is being provided in each quote, look as much for what is being said as what is not.

    The most striking difference between the quotes is how specific Obi Wan was while outright lying to Luke, while Han Solo is being much more vague.

    Darth Vader...a pupil of mine = A boy, an apprentice
    Turned to evil = Turned against HIM
    Destroyed the Jedi Knights = Destroyed everything.

    I don't have a favorite theory, just a large number of questions that I believe will lead to whatever big twist The Last Jedi has in store for us.

    Why isn't Kylo Ren mentioned by name?
    Is he not the apprentice who turns against Luke?
    'Destroyed everything" suggests all other young apprentice Jedi were killed, but maybe what was destroyed was something else?
    Perhaps some of them are still out there?
    The young, boy apprentice turned against Luke, but not specifically towards the Dark side.
    Is Han Solo deliberately lying about anything here in addition to being vague?
    Does Rey's force vision actually show us anything that actually happened between them? Or is it intended to add another layer to obscure the twist?

    JJ Abrams' TFA delighted in suggesting that Rey's identity was an important mystery element.

    "Where do you come from? Classified, really? Me too. Big secret."

    "What girl?" End scene.

    "Who's the girl?" End scene.

    But I believe it was more misdirection, knowing fans would obsess about family ties. Though I do believe that Kylo Ren, Maz, Leia, and Han Solo all know who she is.

    Rian Johnson has said that who Rey's parents are is important to Rey, but not necessarily to the story. I don't believe he is using misdirection here. I take that at face value. Even if she isn't just random.

    Finally, we know that Kylo Ren is a deliberately conflicted character. And his final conversation with his father is also deliberately vague, leading to similar speculation.

    Did Ben Solo rush off to protect Han and Leia, or perhaps Rey? Only to be captured and turned by Snoke?

    Does Ben Solo believe he is working undercover to get close enough to Snoke and kill him? Was killing Han, or perhaps Luke preferably, a loyalty test?

    Could Ben Solo turning against Luke be less about dark vs. light and more of a conflict over Ben wanting to use the Force and the new generation of Jedi to get involved in the battle against the First Order?

    Did Luke decide he wanted the Jedi to end before Ben Solo turned against him? Is it why?

    Is Snoke so powerful in the Dark Side that he can effectively turn any Jedi? Which is why Rey was hidden and Luke was off hiding or trying to find a way to defeat him? Were all of the new generation of Jedi turned instead of killed? Are they the Knights of Ren?

    Was Rey the only one who got away?

    I could go on and on.

    But I'll ask, do you believe that The Last Jedi will try for as big a reveal/twist as ESB? And if the twist is a family tie, does it have to be something we barely guessed in order to be as effective?
     
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  2. DarthWarEagle

    DarthWarEagle Rebel General

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    Some really good points, especially in regards to Han's quote. I had never really even thought about what he said like that, but it makes perfectly good sense.
     
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  3. Julius Fett

    Julius Fett Force Sensitive

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    That was a great post @Dr. Kenobi , very original!

    I only want to address your final question, about whether the twist will be about Rey's lineage in particular: the short answer is no, I don't think it will be, nor can it be, simply because RJ and Ridley herself have gone so far as to inform us that Rey's lineage will be revealed in the film. Why do that if you then plan to use this as the twist?

    In fact, I think it's to take our attention away from whatever the actual twists are that will be aimed at us, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if we find out about Rey's parents before the midway point of the film. I genuinely think this will be RJ's way to ease people into the film, and to make them think the film's going to be very obvious from then on: "Oh, what, that was supposed to be the big reveal? Rey's a Skywalker/Random?" (Sorry, but I seriously think that these are the only two real options at the moment, and I defy 'Random' as out of the blue - if she's linked to someone else who's not a main character in canon, I think that still rings true.)

    And then we get into the real meat of it. Some big twist comes about halfway through the film, likely to do with what actually happened with Ben and Luke at the Academy, and suddenly everything can be questioned: What if Finn turning against the FO wasn't so accidental? Could Rose be up to something? Like you ask, what really did go down at Luke's Academy for him to think that going into hiding was the solution? Was it really by the will of the Force that Rey got involved, or by the will of Luke/Snoke? Etc.

    Oh, and I think it's worth mentioning that if Han was indeed referring to his son when explaining what happened to Finn and Rey aboard the Falcon, it would make sense for him to not know that he'd adopted the title of Kylo Ren, at least from what other canon material implies, hence why he doesn't refer to him as such (though, then again...he did somehow know that that was him on Takodana taking Rey away, so perhaps they had confronted one another before then - him confirming his adopted title must have not come up aha)
     
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  4. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi General

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    Han didn't want to tell them that his son was the galactic warlord Kylo Ren. It's pretty simple.

    Princess Leia Royal Rebel: “Ben Solo was seduced by the dark side, and by the First Order – a military movement that opposed the New Republic and the Jedi. Leia’s son killed all the apprentices Luke had been training and left his uncle’s Jedi Temple in flames. Like his grandfather, he took a new name after turning to the dark side – Kylo Ren. Luke abandoned his quest to rebuild the Jedi Order and vanished.”

    The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary - Kylo Ren entry: “Kylo Ren betrayed the other Jedi students studying with Master Luke Skywalker, and is responsible for their destruction. He has well earned the nickname ‘Jedi Killer,’ whispered in the First Order ranks, as it was his deadly lightsaber skills that prevented the return of the Jedi Order.”

    StarWars.com - Kylo Ren entry: "A dark side warrior with a mysterious past, Kylo Ren was neither Jedi nor Sith, but a product of both sides’ teachings. Once an apprentice of Luke Skywalker’s, he killed his fellow students and drove Skywalker into exile, becoming a First Order warlord and servant of Supreme Leader Snoke. Kylo was determined to destroy the last remnants of the Jedi, fulfilling the legacy of Darth Vader."

    https://swinfoground.wordpress.com/...rtaining-to-the-star-wars-sequel-trilogy-era/
     
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  5. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    The twist is going to be between why Luke really went into exile and why Kylo turned. Somewhere in that lies the truth of something we may not want to know but need to know.
     
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  6. Julius Fett

    Julius Fett Force Sensitive

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    I agree that this will be the case, and it does make me wonder about what we could see for it to be considered a huge twist; for instance, perhaps Luke, for some reason, decided to give up on the idea of the Jedi Order and destroyed the Temple himself. Upon learning about this, Ben went AWOL and finally decided to start his own boyband with Snoke as manager, and so the Knights of Ren went on to lay waste to the students of the Academy.

    Not what I think actually happened, mind, but I think it's something head-spinning like that which would be the only way to pull off what we, as SW fans in particular, could consider a huge twist.
     
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  7. beachdude42

    beachdude42 Clone Commander

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    I’ve been saying essentially this for months. I finally wrote down my theory on Reddit recently, and wish I had done it sooner. The parallelism between Han’s expository scene in TFA and Obi-Wan’s in ANH is so breathtakingly clear to me that I’m amazed more haven’t noticed it by now.

    My theory is only one interpretation of what could happen, but if anyone wants to take a look:

     
    #7 beachdude42, Oct 9, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
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  8. Lobot

    Lobot Rebel Official

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    My thoughts exactly. Part of it is Luke's feelings of guilt, but there's something very interesting we're about to learn about Luke.
     
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  9. beachdude42

    beachdude42 Clone Commander

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    I think Luke DOES feel guilty, but the reason WHY is not yet fully revealed.
     
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  10. Dr. Kenobi

    Dr. Kenobi Rebelscum

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    Boo!
    Boo you.
    Boo Star Wars for overexplaining.
    Boo!

    :)
     
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  11. Lobot

    Lobot Rebel Official

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    I agree. But I also think he's afraid, but not being a coward...

    There's something big that's going to be revealed....and I hope tonight has something hinting at it rather than a lot of Rey training.
     
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  12. rak mal

    rak mal Clone

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    Yeah i think
     
  13. TheGreyandTheRed

    TheGreyandTheRed Rebel General

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    I think this is one of the most likely theories. That incident is the one part of the new trilogy that has no real truth to it, yet has been referenced on a number of occasions. I think its also the main catalyst for the entire story. I'm very interested to find out what really happened as I think it has massive repercussions.

    Theres also 2 other lines/bits of info Re his backstory I'd like explained.

    In TFA Han says to Leia 'it was snoke, it was always snoke' this implies that snoke manipulated him from close by. As if they knew of him and his influence but couldn't do anything to stop him. Its almost like he resents him for some sort of betrayal. Similar in a way that sidious corrupted Anakin. Maybe snoke had a different identity in the past. (Not someone we yet know of ie plagueis or god forbid Jar Jar)

    The other is where did kylos obsession with Vader come from. I doubt Vader was someone his parents sat around and talked about at dinner. Or that little Kylo went with cool unky Luke once a year to lay flowers at his grave and wax lyrical on what a hero his grandfather had been. Where'd the obsession/Hero worship come from?

    Kylo Ren as much as he comes across as a bit of a whiny emo b*tch with severe daddy issues is undoubtedly the most fascinating new character to be introduced. And I think his back story is far more important/relevent than little 'Mary Sue' Rey's. But that's just my opinion don't flame me for it lol.
     
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  14. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    in case you didn't already know, Ben Solo didn't know Vader was his grandfather until he was 22/23 years old. his family hid the truth from him. worse still, he likely found out when the information went public in a scandal that cost Leia her Senatorial credibility. (all of this happens in Bloodline).

    while we don't know why Ren Ben developed an obsession with Vader, it's fair to conjecture that the combination of this forbidden knowledge and his own confusion about his place in the galaxy fueled it--alongside Snokie-poke poking in his head, no doubt.
     
  15. TheGreyandTheRed

    TheGreyandTheRed Rebel General

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    Well that explains things a little bit, cheers. I haven't read much of the canon EU stuff I just study the films and some of the animated series. Thanks for the info.
     
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  16. Vink Ren

    Vink Ren Rebelscum

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    [​IMG]
     
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