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Trilogy not planned?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by cassidy, Feb 23, 2018.

  1. cassidy

    cassidy Rebel General

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    Why did Disney make these movies with no trilogy story in mind?

    It appears that Rian Johnson was allowed to write the story he wanted with little to no changes from a story group, and now JJ Abrams has confirmed that they have a script for IX, and is excited to have one so far in advance of production. For such an important story (Star Wars) how could they just... "wing it?" I understand that it would have made sense to allow JJ and his team to write VII to establish a foundation, but it seems like everything from that point forward would need to be carefully thought out. Instead, it just seems as if they're doing one movie at a time. TFA set up a fantastic potential story/plot for future installments and most of it seemed to be wasted and thrown out in VIII (I know this has been discussed a million times) but I feel as if we are starting over with an entirely new saga for IX.

    If I had $4 billion to purchase the rights to Star Wars I would have at least sat down with my team and said, "Okay, this is where this story is going." from the very beginning.

    Did Rian actually have as much creative control over the story as people are saying? Could he alone have made Rey go to the Dark Side or Kylo to the Light Side? Was the fate of the story truly in his hands? If so, this movie is nothing more than a single man's fan fiction, rather than a collaborated effort of top writers with a common goal to make the best Star Wars story possible.

    What's the deal?
     
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  2. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I think it's clear that there are at least some parameters the filmmakers have to deal with.

    What they are- hey, I at least can't say.

    At the very least, I'd say that some of the major characters have loose outlines. Say, maybe from the beginning Rey was always supposed to meet Luke in TFA, expand her powers in TLJ, and (REDACTED) in EpIX.

    Or, alternatively, I assume Rian didn't choose to kill off Luke- something that big, I can only assume, was planned.

    Characters like Rose, Holdo, and maybe even Poe could well be the individual creations of the filmmakers, giving them a little more freedom in the narrative.

    And even the smaller choices, I assume, have to be approved. If Rian wanted to bring in Ziro the Hutt and Sy Snootles to save the day at Crait, I can only think that Kathleen Kennedy would pressure him to make a better creative decision.
     
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  3. Ruralfarmboy

    Ruralfarmboy Jedi General

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    And also remember from, I think it was the Collider interview with Steve Weintraub, Rian did tell that he'd begun his writing as TFA was just beginning to shoot.
    This here topic came up about a month or two back (meybe longer),I also had this run through my head ... so, those two were in-n-outta LFL before they each went off to start their works, right ?
    Surly they'd had to have talked at some points.

    Not sayin' they did or didn't an' we'll meybe never know. And that's ok.
    Funny this just come up as I just got back into listenin' to a SW podcast I ain't listened to in over a year
    (Echo Base on Random Chatter network - Erik Blythe for them that may remember, He hosted the Old The Force Cast)
    anyways, they got to talkin' about this here Very topic.
    I think it's Ep. 126.

    Somethin' else just struck me ... 'member back when we were told LFL's makin' a Sequel Trilogy (after LFL was bought),
    Miss Kathy said the Whole lot of them was all brainstorming on where Stories were gonna go and where they were gonna end up.
    ...hmm. Sounds like a plan.

    Me ? I'm not much worried abouts this.
    There's a Lot Lot Lot that has, is and will keep goin' into and on as to how All these Stories get put together.
    It's Never just one thing.
     
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  4. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    That's a good point. I also remember that apparently early scenes of the "lightsaber handoff" at the end of TFA were originally going to have a lot of rocks floating around Luke, to demonstrate his emanating power.

    Instead, Rian decided to end up asking them to remove that in post production, since Luke would be detached from the Force.

    This tells me two things:

    1) Rey meeting Luke at the end of TFA was a "fixed" point that was planned early on.

    2) Luke being detached from the Force and the Jedi was something Rian decided on- likely with the stipulation that he'd have a change of heart by the end of the film.
     
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  5. Buckeye94

    Buckeye94 Rebel General

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    I don't think we'll ever know what the deal is on this subject. There seems to be a lot of conflicting comments from everyone involved about how much freedom each director had. The story doesn't seem very cohesive at this point and I'm hoping for some miracle to happen with Ep. 9 that will have it all make sense.
     
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  6. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    There is this myth going around and is constantly perpetuated even by some more informed SW pundits that LFL had no idea where the overall story of ST is going and that Rian, having all the creative freedom (by his own account), turned the Saga willy-nilly on its head and that, presumably, JJ can do it too.

    This is the interview from December, 2015.

    Creative freedom doesn't mean that Luke Skywalker was secretly always evil or that Leia is a polygamist. It means that within the a certain boundaries ('we have to get there') they can choose whatever path and circumstances to reach certain points. That is something that is agreed upon as we see from this interview even years ahead and writers know and agree to that. So when they are not given any other instructions of how to handle things, of course, that is freeing to them. Because, they were already thinking within certain parameters and are building story within them.

    EPIX has some external circumstances (primarily Carrie's death) that interrupted their planned rhythm of creating movies, and we will see how they handle that, but Rian not only collaborated - he moved to friggin' San Francisco to be close to the Story Group. So, this myth that there was no plan at all and that writers/directors can do whatever they want has to stop being repeated, because it was never true.
     
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  7. cassidy

    cassidy Rebel General

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    Everyone has made very good points. And I must agree, we may never know the truth of how all of this went down -at least not for quite some time.

    As @cawatrooper mentioned, perhaps there were guidelines set in place with some being more flexible than others. Luke had to die, but perhaps how he died, the locations, less important characters, and other minor plot elements were up to the director's specific creative vision.

    I've been watching The Lord of the Rings trilogy and can't help but think how incredible 7, 8, and 9 could have been with a similarly fleshed out story line and initial planning stage. I suppose I see it as a loss for the franchise, a rushed project by Disney to get these movies out and generating revenue as quickly as possible; such a shame and wasted opportunity to do something really special.
     
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  8. Dra---

    Dra--- Rebelscum

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    It makes perfect sense that KK and LFL don't care about the story. They only care about profiting off nostalgia for the old movies. They knew plenty of fans would be happy with that. New fans wouldn't notice and others just wanted something more entertaining than the PT.

    Another goal was to destroy the old characters so whatever new ones they come up with seem superior. Their goals are obvious.

    Meanwhile, now that they're making their money back, they've given some new writers the time to possibly come up with a decent story. But the ST never had to have one because it just needed to mimic the best parts of the OT and PT.

    They couldn't care less that they shat on one of the greatest Sagas ever made. It's a sad spectacle that fanboys and girls love.
     
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  9. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    They have a general plot and character outline for Rey, Kylo and the legacy characters :). They know perfectly well where these characters are supposed to be going and what their story should be.
     
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  10. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    Oh, its was planned alright. Pitifully.
     
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  11. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    This is a lesson that one person should have the big picture vision for a Trilogy, whether it be JJ or RJ. You can have different directors like the OT who can stamp their style on each movie, but Lucas was still the main visionary of that Trilogy.

    I think TFA would have been different if RJ was writing it and I think TLJ would have been different if JJ was writing it. I think both movies would have complimented each other better if one of these guys wrote both. Snoke would have probably never appeared in TFA if RJ was writing it, whereas Snoke would have probably been fleshed out more in TLJ if JJ were writing it. I actually don’t have a problem with either outcome but now they look like 2 different stories instead of 1 narrative.
     
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  12. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    So they only care about profiting off nostalgia, but their goal is also to destroy the old characters? That's quite a contradiction.
    This reads like a parody making fun of people who have real issues with the film. However, look at all the positive ratings the post received!

    "This person hates the film, who cares if it's off topic and unhinged!" "Click like!" "Great post!"
     
    #12 DailyPlunge, Feb 24, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
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  13. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I don't know what was done and decided behind the scenes.

    I do know TLJ acted like a solo (or 3rd installment) movie where it ended most of all the plot lines created in TFA. Whereas many of us see this chaotic story as a hindrance, those who love TLJ see it as a great subversion (generally speaking, I'm sure not everyone group thinks on this point) and a breaking of the mold. Real life rarely fits the traditional story, and I'm thinking that's what they are going for. It'll be interesting to see if this lasts the test of time or not. I suppose it could wind up being the new reality TV of movie making. I hope not, but if it maintains it's popularity, I can see more trilogies (not just SW) following the same format.

    It makes things impossible to predict or anticipate because they can see the theories being bandied about and purposely avoid them. Social media is a tool that directors never had before and they are just now learning how to use it to their advantage. I see it as cheap, but I suppose it's one way you can create different and new and never miss with the masses. In a way the ST is ground breaking because of that (this trilogy could be trend setting for years if not decades moving forward). I think it could work, but I also think more attention needs to be paid to detail than RJ did in TLJ.
     
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  14. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Rebelscum

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    Seeing as how Rian said he had an open slate going into the film I am going with not planned. It has worked out so far, but would it be better if there was one? Almost certainly.
     
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  15. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    As some have already pointed out there's more of a plan in place here than people realize. This feels like the same narrative to me and to many others who love the trilogy so far. The biggest challenge the third act has is that a main actor passed away between films. It's rumored now that CT wanted to make changes to The Last Jedi and that was the reason he was let go. He probably wanted to kill Leia in the film which would have significantly changed TLJ.
     
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  16. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    CT stated that Episode 9 was going to be Leia’s movie (obviously before Carrie Fisher’s death) so I don’t know why you’re speculating that scenario.

    I don’t think the passing of Carrie Fisher and what happens in Episode 9 has anything to do why certain fans don’t feel TLJ and TFA jive. Leia’s arc is rarely discussed regarding the fans problems with TLJ other then her flying plot point.

    Lucas evolved the OT and did not have everything planned so fans understand that characters and plot points can change. My whole point is I’d rather have RJ write the whole Trilogy or JJ, as 2 different visions sometimes feel disjointed compared to one vision.
     
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  17. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

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    I think you have several factors is this:
    • Disney had just spent 4 billion and wanted to see a return so didn't want to sit around for a few years while some one ironed out a story for a 3 film arc
    • They hired JJ Abrams, who while he does intrigue mystery excitement and characters really well, he is renowned for not planning out his stories and having answers for the questions his films or Tv shows pose.
    • JJ was also rushed into making the film, by all accounts he wanted the film pushed back by a year and got 6 months, under a tight schedule it is common sense to concentrate on the film you are making and not spend your precious time planning out another 2 films.
    • Disney obviously wanted to hire different directors and writers for each film, and wanted to give them opportunity to write their own stories, instead of sticking to a already layed out plan.
    Obviously it is easier to make a series of films make sense when you have a mapped out plan, but it is not impossible to do look at the Original Trilogy, reading the making of books its very clear that Lucas had didnt have much of a plan as to were he was going, Vader wasn't Luke Farther, Leia wasn't his sister...... and that is renowned as one of the (if not they) greatest trilogies of all time, but even in that trilogy you do get some jarring moments, Leia kissing Luke now is just weird. Also Lucas didnt know he was going to get a trilodgy, Disney knew they were going to get a trilogy and beyond..

    So why I understand why Disney wanted to rush production, i do think it would have been better business sense long term if they had been patient and came up with a set out story.
     
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  18. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    No one claimed that it did.
    Because Fisher died and his story had to change. His new story needed changes to be made to TLJ that Lucasfilm was unwilling to make.
    Hmm... this trilogy is nearly over. It's a smash hit and it's made billions. The business sense is fine, it's the story that suffers.

    That aside, it appears the Lucasfilm now how time to flesh out some of the future stories.
     
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  19. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

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    these star wars films were always going to be smashes, the first few the gate were going to make billions, i'd argue that having a plan from the start would help them keep that momentum long term.

    They may still pull that of though, just think in the rush to get films out they have made it harder for themselves.
     
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  20. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    From a certain point of view, they screwed it up majorly. I like most parts of the ST so far, but it could've been much better imo. There are very few verifyable sources as to why, but I think most link the rush to financial reasons. Disney bought the franchise for $4 billion+, so they wanted results hastily. Which is kind of lame, considering the LFL purchase wasn't even that significant compared to other major Disney acquisitions [Saban Entertainment for 5,3 billion in 2001; Pixar for 7,4 billion in 2006 or the recent Fox purchase for 52,4 billion (!) etc] and the fact that the Marvel movies were doing pretty damn marvelous at the time of the acquisition (see: Avengers), so they've already had a cashcow going on full steam.

    I think the prodction of TFA also played an important role, as it was rather chaotic. First of all, no one wanted to do the job. LFL offered the director's chair for like half of Hollywood, but everyone chickened out for some reason or another. And when they finally persuaded JJ Abrams, script problems started to occur. I'm inclined to believe they sort of wanted to map their trilogy based on the screenplay of TFA, but they had to change their plans when Ardnt left after eight months of work leaving pretty much only ideas and fragments. You could easily tell they didn't map out anything just by reading about this mess. LFL hired Kasdan quickly and postponed the release date. But that didn't help too much imo. Kasdan and JJ rushed the script with the false "we must take a step back before going forward" ideology and basically copied ANH for the spine of their story. With full creative freedom and no real direction they stuffed the movie with storylines that seem mysterious and promising for the first time, but were actually too small in scale, vague and had no conclusion planned. With little communication and assisstance to RJ, they finished TFA on pretty much a dead end, leaving many storylines that seemed like were open, actually closed or impossible to set up in a single movie already overstuffed with characters (i.e: Why's Luke on the island, Rey's parentage etc), left no room for a time jump and had no context about the sociopolitcal state of the GFFA at the time. It didn't help that the core story wasn't too good either (bascially Rebels vs Empire again).

    Plus, we can not skip over the fact that there wasn't really a Kevin Feige type of leader over Star Wars. KK is a great producer for individual projects, as clearly proven by her incredible filmography, but she dosen't seem to be a leader that has a clear vision about the future of the franchise. Maybe she can't even have one, who really knows what the Disney overlords are doing behind the curtains... This however I think is the most important reason, because you can clearly see the same issue with the DCEU. They have no idea how to do a cineamtic universe and change their routes basically every time a movie's released.

    The strict and short time schedules also play part imo. Nowadays what Hollywood does with their blockbusters isn't really that much of filmmaking, instead film manufactoring. It's like a film factory. Christiopher Nolan recently noted that the reason to why there is no new Dark Knight out there, is because filmmakers simply don't have the luxury of time in our overcrowded, large-budget film filled, hype- culture surrounded era.
    http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/12/01/the-dark-knight-trilogy-christopher-nolan-luxury-time/

    I think this is a real shame and a huge missed opportunity. Very rarely in film history was a story guaranteed to have a trilogy (maybe even two). Imo the trilogy should've been entirely written by a single, very talented writer in advance with a clear vision, as this "lets pass the story from one to another" don't seem to be working well so far. Would it take a decade to write? No problem. Just make sure for the highest quality.

    That being said there are many bs floating around on the internet. Many online people are just simply hateful, and things like this attract them.
    For instance:
    Without engaging into how incredibly stupid the supposition of that is, don't you think killing off the OT characters is a tiny bit of a contradiction to that statement? Or do you think they plan profiting on nostalgia by killing the nostalgia?
     
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