TROS Viewings

Some movies get better after multiple rewatches. For example, I was disappointed about TFA after my first viewing, but the more I watched the more I liked it.

TROS got worse and worse for me. But I still wanted to watch it at least twice (once in German and once in English).

 

And how is Bond not being part of a single continuity have to do with consuming something awful.

Ian McDiarmid appears for a total amount of maybe 10 minutes in an almost 2.5 hour film. You can't find the clips of him on YT?

I am not disputing how you spend your time. I just am trying to understand the logic and behind someone who feels a nee to repeatedly consume something they consider to be awful.

 

I should note that the Craig-movies have more of a continuity to them. If you didn't like "Octopussy" you don't have to sit through it to have a cohesive story if you like "View to A Kill". While I don't include the ST in my personal canon, I did like much of TFA (while the plot is a soft remake of ANH, I really liked Rey as a character in that one and there are quite a few good scenes), I absolutely loath TLJ (and the so-called "development" of Rey's character) but as TROS in a way "retconned" TLJ one can skip TLJ entirely as that movie didn't bring the story a single step forward anyway. TROS is the culmination of the story.

Why would I want to watch the clips on YT?

"Repeatedly"? I've watched TROS a total of three times: Once in theater, once on Blu-Ray to see things I thought had missed (such as the location of the Emperor's throne room as pointed out in the scene ripped from "The Goonies") and once with a friend. It's not a weekly event.

 

I saw this movie two times in theaters. I actually really enjoyed it.

but since home release, I've tried to watch it twice, and I've fallen asleep both times. That almost never happens to me while watching movies.

 

I saw TRoS 3 times in the theater and has since seen it a couple of times at home. For the most part, I really like the film, even though it is easily the SW movie that feels the least Star Wars... which also makes it rather fresh. Apart from the dagger story arc being forced and meh, I find TRoS to be a stellar SW

 

Dave ? Dave feel a nee ?

Spoiler

LOL

 

I've still only seen TROS three times.

On my first viewing, I had that full hype energy- I distinctly remember thinking it was a contender for the best film in the series.

On my second (also in theaters), I began to see some cracks. While it undoubtedly had some awesome moments, but without the hype of opening night it was easier to see the flaws.

On my third (now at home)... I was extremely disappointed. Even parts of the final battle that hyped my up the first time felt cheapened. And the earlier stuff like the dagger plot just felt... laughably bad.


I wish I could go back to feeling like that opening night, honestly. But to be real, a Star Wars movie hasn't made me really feel like it was THE EVENT since The Force Awakens. Rogue One came fairly close, and The Last Jedi showed immense promise... but I think there's just something about Star Wars having untapped potential into the beyond that's fun.

So I'm not saying that TROS being "bad" is fully to blame for why I don't enjoy it (though it certainly plays a part). But that there's some quality to these films that's really fun to explore, some idea of exploration that tends to be more enjoyable than a clean payoff to me.

I think it's probably a gross oversimplification to say that I "enjoy the idea of Star Wars more than Star Wars itself", but there's a nugget of truth to be found in there somewhere. It's why as a kid I always loved playing with the toys, playing video games, reading the books, fighting with toy lightsabers on the playground and barely watched the films- to me, the story of the GFFA is just too big for 120 minutes to really explore. And I think if a film tries too hard to give us a grand tour of everything Star Wars, it feels watered down (see AotC and TROS)- while focusing on specific events that feel more rooted in it can really pay off (see TESB, Solo, TLJ). I mean, compare the awesome first season of The Mandalorian to the Celebrity Squares second season. Both are enjoyable, but the first just felt more at home in its world, by a longshot.

Just my soapbox, but by trying to be as epic as possible, JJ ironically just made TROS feel small and isolated.

 

I guess it depends on your expectations.


For me it was the exact opposite. I was bored watching TFA (loved Daisy as Rey ), it just came across as a retooled version of ANH and the film came across as if it was just slapped together with the intent on making fast cash.
I walked out of RO because I found it a chore. Nothing was happening and it was just a re-hash of every WWII French resistance film imaginable. I could never really get into SW. I just find the franchise empty and doesn't seem to have any depth. Too much of it comes across as action figures being moved around on the screen. It's why I love Dune and Star Trek. The only material in SW I found engaging is the ST and KOTOR and some of the stuff in the EU. I love action films as well, but it also needs to have a message and a story and fleshed out characters. And that's what the ST has, and especially Rey's story. There's nothing more fascinating for me than watching the transformation of a human being.

I find it far more interesting than all the explosions and fist fights.

I don't think that Abrams was trying to be epic. Hence the focus on Rey and Ben's internal struggles. If LF had just wanted to do epic and ignore character development then I strongly believe that they would have just stuck with Trevorrow's original script. Which is a boiler plate action film.

I chalk up the lack of spectacle to the fast release date and probably Disney wanting to just move on after the outcry from TFM. Although I suspect that given the popularity of the cast their stories might be revisited at some point.

 

I don't want to sound like a hater here but TROS completely ignored character development or better said the movie developed its characters backwards.

- In TLJ Rey finally accepted that she is no one and didn't need a biological family. Her family are her friends. <> In TROS Rey suddenly is obsessed with founding out who and what her past is again.

- Finn goes through the same development in every single movie. From not wanting to help the Resistance to becoming a hero of the Resistance. + "REEEEY"

- They didn't even try with Poe...

- In TLJ Kylo finally achieved what Vader couldn't and he was set up as the final villain for the next movie. Nah, let's completely forget about that and go back to TFA Kylo. There was even the same scene from TFA...

- Hux went from a power hungry and threating General - who was set up as the second main villain - to a throw away line character.

- Luke: "I was wrong."


Say what you want about Colin's DOTF but at least it felt like a sequel to TFA and TLJ.

 

In some ways, absolutely. The Coruscant stuff sounds way better than what TROS gave us for the supporting cast and final battle.

I'm a little torn on the Mortis stuff. Like, I think Mortis is a fascinating idea, but it probably should've been explored more in previous movies to be meaningful to general audiences in this last one. Then again, same goes for Exegol too...

 

The Mortis stuff should and probably would have been reworked in a later version of the script.

DOTF tried to actually link the three trilogies. Interesting though neither in TROS nor in DOTF there was no real apearance of Anakin...

 

Sorry I really don't follow.

Can you provide the scene in TROS you are talking about? Because I saw no evidence of her seeking out. Ren told her the rest of her story she got upset and decided that she wanted to take down Palpatine. The person who was responsible for stealing away he childhood.

Even if Rey had decided that her family doesn't define her. It still does not mean that she does not suffer from insecurity or even residual trauma as a result of being abandoned and abused.

Also Rian Johnson stated in an interview after TLJ that the matter of Rey's parentage was never settled.

?????? What?
Finn was the one who came up with the plan to take down the lead ship and led mission to take down the satellite. He was right there in the final battle.

Poe was the acting general, rallied the troop and gave everyone directions on what to do. It's a far cry from how he started out in TFA. So I don't know how 'nothing was done with him'

Again can you cite the scene where you are getting this from? Kylo wanted to unite the galaxy like Vader. But by time the end of the TLJ it was clear that TFO lost resources. Also Ren was never ever going to be the main bad guy. Hence the constant reference to his soul feeling as if it were 'being' torn in two.

Hux was only in his position of power because he was Snoke's favourite....or not even that he was a useful idiot. Hence Snoke's line calling him a useful [dog] When Snoke died he lost his position. He was never a good general to begin with and got much of his power and status by kiss butt and throwing people under the bus. He killed his own father.

Luke already showed that he was wrong in TLJ when he came back and faced down Kylo Ren

There's no Bendemption in DOTF, no Reylo/ Dyad in the force. Rey's character arc is supposed to the heroines journey . And none of this is in Trevorrow's script. And how is it that Kylo is supposed to have killed her parents?

 

Poe's character didn't change as a result of his experiences in all three movies. And even if rey is still suffering from trauma, she can look for her old family and still stick with the new, which i don't think she did in TROS

 

Poe started off as a fly by the seat of his pants who wanted seek glory/ be a hero in TFA. By the end of TLJ he learns that it's more important to get the job done, save lives and to fight another day. And he takes that lesson into TROS.

She did exactly that when she took on the name Skywalker at the end. The family she wants to be associated with.

 

IMO it's a confusing narrative shift between TLJ and TROS. Furthermore in TROS Kylo says that he never lied, Rey's parents were no one. Wait a moment! Kylo never ever said this in TLJ. Rey DID say they were nobody.

While it may no be settled in TLJ, he actually should have been. The most interesting part about Rey was her not being related to anyone. The beauty of Rey Nobody is that we are all Rey. I have to quote JJ Abrams here:

"For me, when I heard Obi-Wan say that the force surrounds us and binds us all together, there was no judgement about who you were. This was something that we could all access.
I really feel like the assumption that any character needs to have inherited a certain number of Midi-Chlorians or needs to be part of a bloodline, it's not that I don't believe that as part of the canon.
I'm just saying that at 11 years old, that wasn't where my heart was. And so I respect and adhere to tge canon, but I also say that the force has always seemed to me to be more inclusive and stronger than that." - JJ Abrams, 2015
​

Oh JJ, I wished you would have stick to that idea... Rey being an offspring of Palpatine weakens this message and makes the character go backwards in terms of storytelling. This reveal sacrificed the main character's arc for shock value, without adding anything to the story. We already had a satisfying answer.
Additionally people connected with Rey because we all have darkness and a deep desperate desire for connection to some one within us. But they went backwards on this and explained that's all part of your parenthood. That's invalidating and patronizing. Especially regarding women.
Daisy Ridley once said that she didn't think Rey's power needed to be connected to a man. But in the last movie all her power is because of the most powerful man in the whole galaxy... Rey's lineage actively undermines her entire journey from darkness to self enlightenment. It's a retrogression.

At the end of TROS we are exactly there where the character began. She's back in the desert and wears clothes which her parents might recognize, just like in TFA. While she has gotten answers about her lineage, she ist still alone without a family. Which is weird because TLJ showed her that her friends are her family, but apparently she forgot that...

Then there is her relationship with Ben. Rey and Ben are in love (or at least Ren is) and their entire story has been working toward a larger theme. At least in the two prior movies. In the third they killed Ben off and destroyed the biggest payoff of the whole trilogy.

This is going backwards for me.

But what happened before that? He just wanted to be with Rey or he only cared about Rey. In every single movie of the ST Finn has the same arc. He doesn't want to be part of the Resistance, he's only here for Rey. In the last act of every movie he then realises he has to be a part of the Resistance to help Rey. There is no progression in his character.

At the end of TLJ Kylo became more than Vader. He evolved to a man who doesn't need any guidance anymore. He doesn't need a role model anylonger. In TROS he suddenly is back honoring Vader and looking for a new master.
Destroying his mask was the most important action he did in TLJ. It was a great moment of character development. In TROS they put him back in a mask and negate this whole journey. It's like TLJ never happened. The movie goes backwards.

And yes, Ren was supposed to be the main villain. JJ Abrams in 2015: "Kylo Ren is a villain in the making... He's the Anti-Luke Skywalker." Furthermore he can be the main bad guy and still be redeemed.

Hux wasn't Snoke's favorite, it was Ren. Hux's was the brain while Kylo was the force. It would have been interesting to actually work with the set up and see how they would have ruled together. An internal struggle within the First Order. But no, Hux gets replaced by a new actor. If you give Hux Pryde's role, than the movie wouldn't change. This shows how bad of a character Pryde actually is.

This is not what I mean, it's how it was delivered. That line was like: "Yeah, in the last movie I actually had a character arc, but people didn't like it, so I guess I was wrong. Now kill papa Palps, kiddo."

There was. You probably didn't read the second draft. He dies with light in his eyes. And we don't know how many drafts there were. But IMO both films failed with Ben's redemption. Killing him off was stupid and goes against the core message of Star Wars.

Yes, and unfortunately she already finished her journey in TLJ. This is the reason why they went backwards in TROS.

 

Not in theater, once.

Regarding the dagger as a symbol, a dagger is a phallic symbol, and may symbolize generative power. Something will be reborn, and that's what happens there. See how it lines up like a key? It's being symbolically inserted into the "keyhole." The death star wreckage is a womb, where Kylo will be reborn as Ben. The death star is equivalent to the dark new moon phase. The occultists probably get a laugh, because the dagger looks plasticky, and has that extension piece, making it resemble a sex toy.

In kundalini yoga, which is ever present in Star Wars, sexual energy climbs the spinal column of the "chakras" which represent aspects of your psychology. The wayfinder is a way to navigate down into the collective unconscious, to meet the archetype of evil who causes all the problems inside of our psyches. The dagger extension part there, points to the thing that will help navigate down and do that psychological work, and get those sexual energies moving up the spine. I think the 7 knights of Ren may symbolize the 7 chakras.

 

(and also they may represent doing work on his dark shadow, since they follow him around dressed in black, and you never know quite what their purpose is)

 

After considering the whole trilogy, I believe they always intended to make her a Palpatine. The trilogy deals a lot with duality. The tug-of-war over the blue lightsaber in TLJ represents the struggle inside of us. A sword is a symbol of the mind, and in the end the mind is torn between the good in the bad and the bad in the good. Ben is on the good side, turned bad. Rey is genetically on the evil side and the heir to the throne of evil, turned good. This conflict resolves in the middle, in balance. Two ends of a polarity are brought together and mended in the middle. The lightsaber is mended in the middle. Then at the end of TROS is Rey's staff-- a polarity-- broken up and settled in the middle in her own lightsaber. She carried that symbolic polarity around with her since the Force Awakens.

 

For further research, in symbolism, a triangle with the point at the top symbolizes the male phallus, and the triangle with the point down symbolizes the female parts. They are called the blade and the chalice. That's what you are seeing. The dagger is the blade, and the crater in the death star is the female chalice, symbolically.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Solomon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anahata

If you are offended by anything sexual, look away now. It is not my intention to offend, only to describe what you are seeing in that scene. The blade is made to look like a sex toy vibrator with a clitoral stimulator. I'm not going to post a picture, but you can look it up if you're interested in that reference. It's a joke, if you're onto what they're saying here. If you heard laughs in the theater at that point, they got it.

 

I've found a song about the chalice and blade that could just as easily be about Ben and Rey, to help understand what they're getting at. Welcome to the magic kingdom. https://pagansong.com/crow-goddess-lyrics/chalice-to-blade/ I was looking for a picture of a cup and knife that is used in ritual magic, when I found one at the top of that song page just to show the symbolism.