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Unused Ideas in the ST

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by SegNerd, Dec 28, 2019.

  1. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    With all the discussion about the lack of coherent vision for the ST, I can't help but notice that the ST does indeed have a lot of ideas that were included in the movies and yet went to waste or were never fully "fleshed out." Here are some of the ones I noticed:

    7. The Awakening
    It may be the title of the first ST movie, but even after seeing the full ST, I don't really understand what the awakening was or what effect it had. If I remember correctly, it was only referenced once on screen, and honestly, it could have been cut from the movie without making any difference.

    6. Canto Bight
    Even though it is a major focus of TLJ and gets a lot of screen time, I can't help but feel like basically nothing actually happened on Canto Bight.

    5. Finn's Force Sensitivity
    Although it is hinted at several times during the films, no explanation is ever given for Finn's Force sensitivity, and it never factors into the plot.

    4. Luke Skywalker
    OT Luke (or as I call him, "real Luke") was a beloved character who was idolized by generations - and they got Mark Hamill onboard to reprise the role! But in spite of securing this opportunity to bring back a beloved character, in one of the three movies he is depicted as a grumpy failure, and the other two he is basically left out almost entirely. We also never got any additional info about what happened to his hand or how Maz got his lightsaber.

    3. The other old-school Jedi
    JJ went to all the trouble of getting James Earl Jones, Ewan McGregor, Freddie Prinze Jr., Ashley Eckstein, Hayden Christensen, Samuel L. Jackson, and Liam Neeson - and yet their appearances are all so subtle that they are almost more like Easter Eggs. Anakin's absence in particular felt like a major plot hole to me.

    2. Broom Boy
    Broom Boy seemed important at the end of TLJ, and there was a lot of curiosity where his character might lead. Turns out the answer was... pretty much nowhere. Although he did demonstrate the idea of Luke's legend permeating the galaxy (wasn't it supposed to be that way already?) - it really wouldn't have made any difference if he had been cut from the movie.

    1. Rose Tico
    After Rose's major role in TLJ, her sidelining in TROS is insulting to Rose and to the audience. With the way it turned out, her character didn't need to be in the ST at all, and some people are starting to wonder if her appearance in TLJ was little more than a commercial for some future Disney+ series.
     
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  2. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    I got the impression that Broom Boy wasn't going to be a specific character we would see again but an idea: New people will begin discovering the force and there will be force users in the future, perhaps a new Jedi order, even.

    I, personally, never thought we'd see that specific kid again.
     
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  3. Philo

    Philo Clone

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    Maybe there were indeed many ideas not fleshed out completely. But if they all were, would the movies have been better? I doubt it, there are already pacing issues with TROS.

    The Awakening: I thought it was illustrated by Rey discovering her Force powers, especially the moment she catches the blue lightsabre.

    Canto Bight / Rose Tico/ Broom boy: we've seen what we needed: a glamourous place, but beneath the surface it's full of greed and social injustice. Finn at first likes this place. At that moment he still has something of the 'runaway'-vibes he had in TFA. Remember he wanted to take a ship to the Outer Rim at Takodana. He only went to Starkiller Base with Solo and Chewie to rescue Rey. Maybe he would have stayed at Canto Bight, if Rose did not show him the shadowside. That's what Rose basically does in TLJ. She never really had an arc on her own. She's some sort of prophet proclaiming social justice. Maybe that's one of the reasons some viewers don't like her, they complain about Star Wars getting too political. She serves the story by showing Finn what the Resistance fights for, what kind of New Republic is actually worth fighting for, and what kind is not. You could say DJ is the exact opposite of her. He doesn't care about any case, he doesn't join sides. A toxic form of relativism that increases the injustice. Broom boy is both the personification of the force users who will never die out and the victims of the unjust social system.

    Luke was indeed a myth, now he became a legend. At Crait it appeared the spark of hope had died out. So despite Luke being a myth, no one in the Galaxy thought: "Don't worry, Luke will come back and save us." People seemed to accept the rule of the First Order. The thing Luke did besides helping the Resistance escape, was bringing hope back to the Galaxy by creating a new chapter in his own mythology. One way or another, the rumor of Luke toying with Kylo Ren reached Broomboy's neighbourhood and became a new legend. I strongly believe societies need common stories to have common goals, to give hope and inspiration. There are many religious, mythological and cultural stories that have inspired people in the past, but also Star Wars can inspire.

    Anakin: To be honest, I thought the title 'The Rise of Skywalker' one way or another referred to him. So I did expect a surprise appearance of Hayden Christensen. The only thing we got was his voice.

    Finn's force sensitivity: maybe the same thing as Broomboy. The message that there will be more force users in the future, the hint at the rebirth of the Jedi Order. I'm okay with the fact that they let this one open, just the way they did with Leia in ROTJ.

    Overall I do think storywise and thematically the ST is coherent in its own and blends in with the rest of the Saga. When it comes to execution and film making, there are some critical points that can be said. Much of them already have been mentioned: the different directors, the problems with the pacing of the movies, the fact that some important scenes in TROS felt flat to me (and to others too, I guess). The ideas behind the new movies are good, but the ST didn't always succeed in making the message resonate with the audience.
     
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  4. Unseen

    Unseen Rebel Official

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    The early leaks (pre-TFA) had some really cool ideas.

    - The good guys having a Deathstar and the moral implications of that, specifically to Leia

    - Luke in hiding because he scared himself by using the force in an unnatural way

    - Inquisitors, if I recall, were originally rumored to be in TFA

    - The galaxy being distrustful of Jedi and skywalkers due to Vader

    Etc.

    A lot of original stuff, but instead we got OT reboot meets an Endgame parody
     
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  5. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    Even more reason why I dislike TFA and a big missed opportunity that movie was.
     
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  6. Unseen

    Unseen Rebel Official

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    I agree, though I think the trilogy could have been salvaged still.

    Another thing- didn't official material say Snoke had at least one other apprentice? Another missed opportunity in TROS.


    And if Palp was essentially pretending to be Vader to seduce Ben, why not show that? Show a messed up Anakin ghost, etc.
     
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  7. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    I can totally get on board with that interpretation. But... it kinda doesn’t fix the problem. The idea of the emergence of new Force users doesn’t really appear in TROS (except Finn I guess), so it still feels like an incomplete idea to me. In fact, with the way TROS ended, we really don’t get much info at all about the future of the Jedi.
     
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  8. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    Agreed! I actually mentioned something similar to this here: https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....iful-but-problematic.57325/page-6#post-570415
     
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  9. Dynamixx88

    Dynamixx88 Rebel General

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    I will try to look at this and try to answer these from what I gather. Mind you, that I am not defeding the movies blindly and it is just my take on the events.

    7. The Awakening
    The awakening was Rey awakening against Kylo as it is in the new canon, that not just by heritage, the force awakens new vessels that are stronger in force
    on both sides... The darkness rises, for light to meet it. This is the new ballance, introduced in the new canon and Clone Wars, there cannot be just strong bunch of dark side users, as the force will produce their counterparts... And as we saw, Finn (and possibly the other stormtroopers on Kef Bir) awakened as well, as his arc that started in the Jakku village was finished in Rise Of Skywalker.

    6. Canto Bight
    Overall, yeah... it was basically another plot of learning trough mistakes, parallel to Luke, Poe and Kylo... everyone was not hitting it on the head in TLJ.
    But I loved Canto Bight for the designs and location, otherwise, we will end with another trilogy full of barren ice, desert and forest landscapes...

    5. Finn's Force Sensitivity
    That is the awakening, the force tries to ballance what is happening in the universe... Snoke hints at it and later explains it by simple statements in TLJ.

    4. Luke Skywalker
    I actually liked this Luke, as he wasn't this EU Jedi God, that went trough hell and back, not aging, marrying Evil Mary Sue Jade redhead geeky bombshell...
    It was actually clever play on this happily ever after BS we see in fairy tales as kids... sure, creep prince kisses the princess that sleeps without her consent, she wokes up and instant love, happy marriage - no divorce, trouble with kids, running out of dragons to slay, non questionable true happiness.
    But I like that they actually went to the Classic Star Wars... that Luke that is human and makes mistakes, that hothead that went from Dagobah to save his friends, risking and almost diying in fight with Vader... Yeah, he touched he Dark Side and almost killed Vader in fury in VI, but as he overcame it and let his father redeem himself, that doesn't mean that he became this deity that doesn't make mistakes anymore, which he instantly realizes in the movie and goes to confront Ben and save the Resistance.

    3. The other old-school Jedi
    Yeah, I can understand the subtlety, but I was really looking forward to see Anakin confronting Ben... but actually, as a surprise, Han Solo filled that role.
    It was awesome moment and it touched me a lot... still, was kinda hoping for vintage force ghosts in ST since TFA :(

    2. Broom Boy
    He was there just to demonstrate that altough Vader killed the Jedi and Ren and Rey are caught in this epic, there are still force sensitive people in the galaxy, no matter what and they can have possible new adventures waiting for them. Plus that Luke's final sacrifice inspired hope in the galaxy among the FO's conquest. It is a classic adventure trope from novels, series, movies for teens...
    It was nice callback to my childhood, as this is the trope that makes the kids hooked on the stories, basically telling them: ''Hey, the story ended, but the adventure goes on.'' for kids to imagine their one stories in their head. It is actually kinda common, even in Japanese manga (most notably, the Dragon Ball series ends like this in the original comic book, passing the torch).

    1. Rose Tico
    I do not hate her, I just didn't bought her grief over her sister, that we were to deduce based on the two halves of their pendants.
    That for me was the biggest dramaturgy error TLJ did, as this unknown character dies and there is her sister, that has to tell you what happened and why you should be sad... otherwise, I liked her. I understood her motivation as she spoke about her childhood and her saving Finn as I was on premiere in cinema was Maclunkey awesome plot twist, as I was already mourning Finn's heroics going against the ''Death Star Technology Panzer Faust''. Yeah, I was puzzled by her limited appearance in TFA and actually her interaction with Finn was like, yeah, we kissed and than I woked up in the infirmary and am just a sideshow prop. I am sad about the actress being bullied by these manchild a-holes that can not treat women with respect (and other people in that matter)
    but maybe, it would be more merciful to let her being some came rather than a bush in the background. She could've been even switched with Jannah, fighting alongside Finn as these Rebel love duo, could be badass... but wasn't and her character now feels completely wasted.
     
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  10. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Yeah, people read WAY too much into that scene.

    It's about showing the persisting future of the Jedi (in a film that earlier implied their imminent extinction).

    It also serves to show the hope that Luke gave to the galaxy as a whole (not just Force users).

    I'm like 99.9% sure we'll never see Broom Boy again, at least not as a major character on screen (he might get a cameo in a film, or perhaps a comic/book). But he accomplished his job well.
     
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  11. Dynamixx88

    Dynamixx88 Rebel General

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    I can see him as an extra in some book like From a Certain Point of View. But he was really just a trope for kids to identify with (you do chores at home as a kid and homeworks, but you dream about being a Jedi) like Robin in Batman for example and like you say, people tend to overanalyze things.
    Star Wars can be hard to watch for some people as Power Rangers are for me as an adult, but... You have to use the lenses of the child you were, because amazing the mind of a child is... I love the return to being a kid and enjoy the nostalgia! Otherwise I am going Apocalypse Now or some thriller genre :D
     
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  12. Jar Jar Thinks

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    7. The Awakening
    It may be the title of the first ST movie, but even after seeing the full ST, I don't really understand what the awakening was or what effect it had. If I remember correctly, it was only referenced once on screen, and honestly, it could have been cut from the movie without making any difference.

    Thank you. It's not just me.

    This is one of my biggest frustrations with the Sequel Trilogy.

    For me, this was the perfect answer to Rey's ridiculous powers and lack of training. She had been trained or powers had somehow been transferred to her, and they awoke in her in this film. It would have saved the endless criticisms that she was a Mary Sue.

    Johnson ignored this completely in The Last Jedi but what I find even more bizarre is that so did Abrams in The Rise of Skywalker. And it would've fit perfectly with the new lineage she was given.
     
  13. Philo

    Philo Clone

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    For me it was the awakening was quite clear in TFA. The moment Rey grabs the lightsabre and fully realizes her Force potential. And without being mentioned literally through the entire ST, it plays an important role. One might wonder how R2 re-awakens at the end of TFA, Rey's presence on D'Qar?

    In TLJ Rey's awakening has an indirect influence on Luke's reconnection to the Force. Indeed, Luke is reluctant to reconnect to the Force but step by step he returns in his own way. Chewy, R2 and Yoda played an important role but Rey put it into motion. At the end the legend of Luke has awakened at least at one place, hope has returned.

    And I do believe the awakening continues in TROS and ultimately brings victory to the good: Jannah and the other stormtroopers, just like Finn, had an instinct. Off course it's logical people have moral issues when commanded to kill civilians, but ALL at the SAME TIME? There has been an awakening. The same awakening explains to me the great participation of people at the end battle. When Lando, Zorii and the entire fleet of people across the Galaxy show up, the awakening has become galactic. People have become conscious of the bigger picture: peace and love in the Galaxy.

    With this the circle that started in TPM is complete: the Republic had fallen asleep. The Senate was just full of bureaucrats with no sense for the common goal, leading their own career. Jedi had diminished in power, they were quite sleepy too (not noticing the threat of the Sith). Like Shmi used to say: "The problem in the galaxy is people don't help each other." Now the Galaxy has awakened, a lot of people willing to give up their own interests for the common good.

    That's what I read between the lines when I look back at the entire Saga in which the ST has its own part even if it does appear to be a simple OT copy.

    About the Mary Sue issue: Rey was a Palpatine, so she was strong in the Force, more explanation needed? And how powerful she may be, she still has her issues: "What's my place in all of this?" As pointed out above, she awakened herself and put the big awakening into motion.
     
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  14. Jar Jar Thinks

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    I agree to a certain degree but there is still the issue of Rey’s lack of training.

    Her lineage only goes part way to explaining it. Even Anakin needed training.

    The simplest explanation, especially if she was a Palpatine, would’ve been that Luke trained her in his temple and then when they found out who she was they took her to Jakku, wiped her memory and abandoned her.

    The events in The Force Awakens then sees the return of her memory.

    That would’ve helped explain how she was able to fight Ren in The Force Awakens with no training. In fact they would’ve fought previously.

    It would’ve explained a little more directly her vision in The Force Awakens.

    It would’ve given a much more credible explanation about why Luke abandoned everyone (for fear of raising another Palpatine) and why he was so reluctant to train her.

    It would’ve explained how Luke and Leia knew.

    And it might even have avoided the need to bring back Palpatine (undoing Dark Varder’s sacrifice) as Rey fights her dark side.

    I just think it would’ve worked so much better. And all would’ve taken was a 5 minute explanation.
     
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  15. Phil J

    Phil J Clone Commander

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    Honestly, it would have been great to have a series that focused more on the human elements rather than the mystical. Personally, I would have wanted Finn's story to be like All Quiet On the Western Front or like classic anime such as Legend of the Galactic Heroes (Sith Eternal being like the Earth cultists and Kylo as an equivalent of Reinhard von Lohengramm) or Gundam Origins with Kylo Ren as a Char figure. Or at least have built on the relationships he had built with his fellow stormtroopers. Just because someone can use a laser sword, it does not mean he is a force user.

    If Finn were to leave the First Order, those other storm-troopers would still be like family to him. In my idea, Finn would have pursued a path of pacifism.

    I would also have had Phasma made stronger and more stoic instead of merely giving up the secrets of the Starkiller base. It is hard to reconcile the strong and heroic character of the supplementary materials and the coward she was portrayed as in the Force Awakens, Rian Johnson tried to fix this but the damage was already done. Have a blackly comedic scene like the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. "Get back here! I'll bite your ankles!"

    Broom Boy... the idea of him is to leave his destiny open.

    Instead of OT Luke as you reference him as, I would like to have had a sequence of his journey throughout the galaxy seeking knowledge and bringing truth to those he encounters. A Jedi version of Thus Spoke Zarathustra.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2020, Original Post Date: Feb 9, 2020 ---
    Personally I would have changed the character's origins to reflect this. Instead of a desert world, have her on a forest world in a treetop settlement where there is the constant threat of apex predators on the ground, in the trees and in the air where water, food and salvage is found. In such a context, she could effectively teach herself. But her abilities at this point would be like a blunt club- powerful but crude and unwieldy.

    I would have de-emphasised any notion of her heritage and have her stand as a character in her own right. To do otherwise would seem like terrible fanfiction where the character cast is like one incestuous village were everyone has to be related to everyone else.
     
  16. Phil J

    Phil J Clone Commander

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    TFA was more like a proof of concept on the part of Disney to test if they could make a successful Star Wars film rather than an actual story. With Rey, personally there was little for me to connect to. In my view, it is the galaxy itself that is the character of the sequel series (like Gotham is with Batman and Mega City One is with Dredd) and she is just a necessary mechanism to explore it.

    Instead of The Force Awakens, it should be referred to as The Force Fragmentation. The New Republic becomes increasingly insular and partisan and ignores the real and present threat that is right on its doorstep, leading to an effective reset of the situation that came before. Not to mention, the The military and intelligence services appear to be woefully unequipped and dependant on old technology which did not exactly help. Han has gone back to engaging in illicit activities, Leia finds her status reduced in the New Republic Senate and Luke's Jedi order has been wiped out leading him to turn his gaze inwardly.

    In the first film. Everything that the Rebel Alliance sought to create was turned to ash.

    To me it is logical that after a military revolution, one would actually increase the size of one's standing army or at least restructure it to be more efficient as was done with the French Revolutionary Army and the Red Army (well, before Stalin began his purges of the officer classes). The reasoning behind this is to prevent the return or any retaliatory action of the old administration and to ward off against any nearby countries that would seek to exploit any perceived vulnerabilities during the state of transition.

    Note, it is not until The Rise of Skywalker that any decisive action by the New Republic takes place.

    With regards to the "'moral issues' of killing civilians", it may be that there was some utilitarian logic at work. Just look at what the Roman Imperium did to villages and tribes that resisted and tribes (notably in Gaul, Carthage and in Judea) that resisted. In the eyes of the average Imperial politician, this was seen as a necessary measure to cow the population so they would not have the will or capability to rebel in future thus preventing future casualties and saving valuable resources that would otherwise have been spent on a costly and protracted campaign. Not to mention such punitive actions were also intended to deter any neighbouring tribes from doing the same.

    While not moral to us, it is important to remember that the Empire and its later iteration the First Order are both modelled on Ancient Rome and the USSR and thus are operating from a totally different moral framework in which the individual is nothing but an extension of the state and any threat no matter how small must be contained if not removed entirely. In collectivist societies like China, there is a greater emphasis on maintaining order and conformity and a perceived fear of societal collapse or chaos if conformity and adherence is not encouraged; this attitude is taken to its nth degree by the Communist party with authoritarian measures being taken against dissent but at the same time, it is not all bad.

    Arguably, the First Order adherents genuinely believe that what they are doing is right by:
    • Ensuring people are protected from harm from others
    • Removing what they see to be a corrupt and inefficient political system
    • Job creation
    • Bringing order stability one planet at a time
    • Rebuilding of pride (Scholar Visari reference)
     
  17. Kylethekollector

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    Yeah the Sequel Trilogy just lacks cohesion. Too many people making decisions.
    They probably should have let Mark Hamill decide how Luke would be in the movies.
    His view would have aligned with fan's views better.
    These movies mostly just provided closure for me since it showed main characters in their dying moments.
     
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  18. Phil J

    Phil J Clone Commander

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    It is almost like art by committee doesn't work. Seriously, we saw that in the Fantastic Four (2015) film. Some of the ideas that were present were deliciously dark:
    • That the Fantastic Four would effectively be weaponised by a powerful military industrial complex
    • That the the Thing is in constant pain
    • The Doctor Doom sequence in the corridor- the idea of this inhumanly powerful being, impervious to bullets walking down this claustrophobic space with the power to boil your brain in your skull and he will because he can; that's terrifying (and also reminds me of the opening sequence of Elfen Lied)


    The problem was that the people in the studio thought it was too dark and tried to retroactively change it and intervened in key junctures resulting in a tonal mess. If they had went with the original darker vision, I would have got it. In fact in my mind, it wasn't dark enough. I would have loved to see the Human Torch in a ruined town with glowing and molten bricks charred corpses or a tearful Reed Richards continually apologising as he suffocates guards with his stretchy hands.

    I read when the pyroclastic flow happened in Pompeii, the skulls of the citizens actually exploded as their brains literally vaporised within their skulls. That would have been fun to see in Fantastic Four (2015). Human popcorn.
     
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