SPECULATION Vader's conversation with The Emperor in ESB

It's 10 years for me.

 

i tend to agree with John on this one. Vader carefully planted the seed early.

fantastic comparison. its easy to see how the context can be slightly altered by subtle changes to the script...and since vader doesn't have lips, it makes it even easier lol.

congrats on the Cantina thread of the week. this was an interesting question.

 

Two sith lords having a chat.

 

The simple answer is, ESB was made long before Lucas dreamed up the whole "rule of two" thing for the prequels.

There are and always will be a lot of points like this where the prequels and the OT don't quite match up. The ESB scene can certainly be viewed now as a veiled "It's on!" between Vader and the Emperor, but that's not really what it's intended to be and it only just sorta works on that level (and only because the latter-day "rule of two" thing forces it to have to work that way.)

 

Doesn’t really force it to be that way. Like it was said above, there were other dark side users that were agents of the Empire. “Turning” Luke to become an inquisitor or assassin would make sense too. Just because he wants to turn him to the dark side doesn’t mean you HAVE to take it as Vader getting a new apprentice to overthrow Palpatine, but then again, why wouldn’t Palpatine WANT that. I mean, of course he wants to live, but the Sith way was to train a new apprentice and overthrow the master when the time was right. Stopping Vader from doing so would be pretty cowardly and against what all Sith have done on screen. Either way I think it works.

 

No Sith would willingly allow his apprentice to overthrow him, and he certainly wouldn't stand idly by while his apprentice went shopping for an apprentice of his own.

Yes, the way of the Sith tends to be that the apprentice eventually overthrows the master. The way of the Sith is also that no Sith lord ever gives up his power willingly. Unlike the Jedi who understand that "twilight is upon me, and soon night must fall" is simply the way of the Force, the Sith will do whatever it takes to avoid having their power and their life taken from them.

Palpatine wouldn't have taken Vader's plan to turn Luke as "Well, time to get my affairs in order" but rather as, "It's time for me to get a new apprentice."

As for Palpatine seeing Luke as mere assassin/inquisitor material... not a chance. Not Anakin's son. He even tells Vader, "He could destroy us." Palpatine knew that Luke was far more than just Sith lackey material.

Now, of course, I've always seen that whole exchange as Palpatine manipulating Vader into bringing Luke to him so he could turn Luke against his father and end up with a younger and more powerful apprentice. But once you throw the "rule of two" thing in there, with both men knowing precisely what the ramifications of it are. then it becomes less about manipulation and turns into an unbelievably transparent declaration of war between Vader and the Emperor - a declaration which is made even less believable by the interactions between the two in ROTJ.

 

I re-watched Revenge of the Sith last night, and while the execution wasn't perfect (I'm looking at you awkward dialog, wooden delivery and fake-looking CGI matte backgrounds), it does a pretty darn good job of showing Anakin's feelings and motivations in his transformation into Vader. Sheev's motivation for turning Sith was pure, selfish hunger for power, while Anakin did it to save people he loved. Even though his ends nowhere near justify the means, his reason for turning to the Dark Side came from a place of relative goodness. It's pretty tragic, and say what you will about Hayden (and trust me, I agree with 99.9 percent of it), but I feel he did a pretty decent job portraying with his body and eyes Anakin's internal struggle and his resignation of his own fate as he knelt before Palpatine.

Vader in the is evil to be sure, but he's also wracked with guilt. He re-directs that guilt into rage directed inward rather than outward. Consciously or unconsciously he doesn't feel he can, or is even worthy of, finding the way back to the Light. So he plays the role of evil Sith Lord rather than actually being one. It's his mask, figuratively and literally. In the PT Sheev gets un-masked in his fight with Mace as a true Sith while Anakin masks himself and hides the true Jedi within.

This is what sets Anakin/Vader and Palpatine apart. Sheev knew Anakin's motivations, and was smart enough to use it to his advantage. Palpatine was also smart enough to recognize that Anakin/Vader's motivations weren't "pure" (from a Sith point of view), and that's why you get all the mind-chess between the two of them in the new comics and in the OT. Vader knows that Sheev wants to replace him with someone younger and more powerful, but yet he offers and attempts to "turn" Luke rather than kill him. A true Sith would want to eliminate all his rivals. Even though his methods have been warped by the Dark Side, deep down Anakin is still trying to save someone he loves.

Long story short, Vader would make a pretty good case-study for a psych grad student.

 

I always wonder why Sidious referred to Luke as ''the son of skywalker'' when he knew Vader was also a skywalker, Vader was smart to quickly put personal concern aside for the loyalty to his master but his plan to overthrow was already in motion.

 

In the original release,it's because we didn't know that Vader was Luke's father yet. I'm not sure why that line wasn't "Fixed" in the Post Prequel version.

 

It was a little bit of script fudging to keep Vader's identity secret until he made his big reveal to Luke.

Afterward, I think that Lucas did his best to balance that out in ROTJ by establishing that Vader no longer saw himself as Anakin Skywalker. "That name no longer has any meaning for me." That was, I believe, at least partly intended to justify the Emperor's "son of Skywalker" reference as him simply enabling/supporting Vader's mental break from his old persona.

 

Well it got me thinking anyway when I first heard it.

For me the ROTJ was Vader's last chance to fulfill his original destiny but I think he knew he wouldn't live after it.

 

"I know enough, he told me, you killed him"
"No, I am your father"
"Nooooooooooo!"



I think the motive is clear, they just both deny alterior motives.
Vader pretends to be weak and obliging.
The Emperor pretends to be magnanimous and astute.

But in reality, Vader is finally ambitious enough to "destrooooy the emperor", and the Emperor is restrained as always because he recognises how to sheppard them all into a trap.


When Luke eventually refuses to kill Vader, even though he beats him, it leaves the Emperor without a plan or ability to sheppard events. He can kill Vader, yes, but Vader is by this point ready to die for the ability to overthrow the slimeball with sparkle fingers , so figures "what the hell?" and chooses plan C, die gloriously.

 

I think the whole reality of a family reunion during a lightsaber duel was kinda needed, Vader IMM was not weak but he did weaken Luke's spirit to fight on in revenge of his mentor's death, Luke noticed by the end of TESB Yoda was training to right the wrong dad made long ago, as for sparkle fingers he was just added to the kill list Luke would have to go through to redeem Vader.

 

YOU MADE MY DAY XD

 

I think it is because the rule of two was never actually a thing. even at the end of phantom menace it wasn't. when mace and yoda say "there are always two, a master and an apprentice" they are just saying no one learns this complicated stuff all by themselves. expunged eu than morphs this into rule of two nonsense.

 

Not sure about the "Rule of 2," never being a thing.

If it was, however, the exchange does make sense. One to hold power, one to crave it. Other than personal power, Palpentine's main goal is to make a stronger Master than he is--if he has a weak apprentice, it is also his failure. If he dies of old age before making an apprentice stronger than him, it weakens the Sith Order.

[Edit]

Also, just think about an Old Sheev on his death-bed, Vader at his side. "You could'a been somebody. You Could'a been a contender!"

 

I tend to think the emporer didn't care about the sith. Just himself.

 

Indeed Sidious in power suited him just fine, I guess letting loose sith cannons run wild across the galaxy was not in his plan, I for one would have carried it out maybe the Skywalkers wouldn't have reached adulthood to stop him, a costly mistake.