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Vader's Pursuit of the Tantive IV

Discussion in 'Rogue One' started by Darth Nole, Dec 21, 2016.

  1. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    A quick trip through lightspeed.
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    I have no problem with that scene. Bail has to be there because he's a prominent Alliance figure which doesn't imply that it's necessary to bring your whole entourage (imagine Bail's ship would suffer an accident in space with him and Leia being aboard...).

    The Tantive IV is apparently Bail's ship (in ANH Threepio only refers to Leia as a "passenger"), commanded by Captain Antilles who owns the droids. After departure from Yavin IV he apparently meets Leia in space and they swap ships. Obviously Bail felt it necessary that Leia would have an armed vessel and the Alderaanian Guards for her protection.

    It's another *cough* unseen event in Rogue One, but just because we didn't see it, doesn't imply it never happened. ;)
     
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  3. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Trouble is it's not apparent or obvious. That's my issue with it.

    Does anyone know if the novelization clarifies this?
     
  4. Dark Toilet

    Dark Toilet Force Sensitive

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    Is she though? I mean, let's all remember that she is only 19 when all this goes down. Arguably, the events that transpire in R1 and ANH have thrust her into the middle of the conflicts and spotlight in the GFFA so that she takes a more prominent role thereafter... and especially after the destruction of Alderaan and loss of her family.

    Mind you, I haven't followed Rebels closely since its first season, and I know she has appeared therein, so perhaps they have already thrust her into the fray, so to speak. But if not, I don't have any problem with her being absent during the strategy meet up on Yavin 4 shown in R1...

    Plus, let's keep in mind the real reason she wasn't there: As a very recognized and beloved character, CGI Leia was only going to work in a small dose at the end of the film. They could get away with more of CGI Tarkin in part because of his unusual facial structure and the very dark tones and environment in which we see him. All of this is to say, Leia wasn't in the R1 meet up on Yavin 4 because that would have been too much, technologically speaking. They showed what they could.

    I personally think she was with her father on Yavin 4, Bail instructs her and Captain Antilles to go get OB1, but the Rogue One team and Admiral Raddus' decision to join in on Scarif caused them to need to join in the battle, too. When seen through this prism, I don't think there is a continuity error or plot hole at all.
     
    #44 Dark Toilet, Dec 23, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
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  5. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    My issue isn't that she's not at the briefing, it's that IF she was on Yavin 4 with Capt. Antilles and the Droids, it makes no sense to have her there and not in the briefing room. I doubt Leia would just be sitting on the ship playing Sabaac! I do understand the need for her final reveal to be brief.

    Seriously, the plot hole solely revolves around R2 and 3PO, not Leia or Antilles. We know Antilles was taking Bail back to Alderaan. We know Bail was going to talk to Leia and send her and Antilles to get Obi-Wan. What we don't know is how R2 and 3PO got back onto the Tantive IV when they were hanging out on Yavin AFTER Bail leaves.

    Perhaps, Bail and Antilles haven't left the planet yet when R2 and 3PO have their cameo. Maybe they leave as the other ships leave for Scarif and Bail is dropped off on Alderaan and Leia is picked up. Then Leia decides to go to Scarif and join the fight. Maybe the novel explains it better. I'll have to read it over the Holidays.
     
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  6. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    R2 and 3PO's cameo needs to be changed (or another added) to the final minute (as a background shot aboard Tantive IV) or be cut out completely. ;)
     
    #46 SKB, Dec 23, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
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  7. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    Just because Leia, in our minds, is an important part of the Rebel Alliance does not mean she would have been there. Maybe she couldn't be there. Maybe she isn't seen as a big shot at this point (but her actions in the coming weeks will see her rise in the ranks).

    As for the droids, I'm not sure what the problem is, except that it seems a minority of fans insist on nit picking at every little thing in these new films. It's almost as if some would rather they had never been made. :/
     
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  8. Dark Toilet

    Dark Toilet Force Sensitive

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    But why does Leia need to be at the briefing exactly? Her father is a much more prominent member of the Rebel Alliance and he would undoubtedly tell her everything she needs to know following that meet up. But as stated before, she is not there for filmmaking reasons, rather than story reasons. It is not a plot hole at all. She is not there because her reveal at the end is much more heartening and evokes stronger emotions because we didn't already see her.

    With regard to the droids, I don't recall the dialogue in Rogue One specifically, but do we know that Captain Antilles is going to take Bail Organa back to Alderaan? Or is Bail going to take another ship? As he states, they have separate missions at this point. Leia is to go seek out OB1 on Tattooine, while Bail has to go back to Alderaan to inform his people that there will be no peace. To me, it makes far better sense that Bail will send his most trusted Captain Antilles, who owns the droids, to accompany his own daughter separately. There is a perfectly reasonable in universe explanation. Again, there is no issue here, people are just trying to make up reasons to not like the film.

    Exactly.

    It really is a weird phenomena how so many "diehard" Star Wars fans want to find any reason possible to not enjoy what is turning out to be the very best time to be a Star Wars fan... all under the guise that this is not George Lucas' Star Wars, when in fact everything that is taking place is exactly what George Lucas originally envisioned for his creation: A saga of three generations of Skywalkers and standalone movies in which young directors can explore other film genres within the universe George Lucas created. That is what we are getting and I, for one, think it is absolutely fabulous!
     
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  9. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    She doesn't. You aren't reading my posts correctly. I was responding to the folks saying that Leia may have been on Yavin but off camera.

    Yes. Bail speaks to an off camera Capt. Antilles as he's walking away. Again, read my previous posts please.
    Nobody is making up reasons to not like the film. I love the film. But there are minor plots issues being discussed. Isn't that why we are on a Forum? To discuss the little things?
    Again, I think you are being over dramatic. I'm not seeing many people that are using minor plot points to hate the film.

    Honestly, if it wasn't for the fully engaged fans that care about the details, Star Wars would not be the success that it is. It's the unrelenting pursuit of great story telling though a fully developed universe that keeps fans coming back. The FANS own Star Wars in that regard. When you listen to these new directors and writers being interviewed, they always cite the fans. Many of the decisions they make are geared towards raising the bar because they know the fans will hold them accountable. In my book, that's a good thing.

    Otherwise, we will end up with a bunch of forgettable Star Trek movies. :p
     
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  10. Dark Toilet

    Dark Toilet Force Sensitive

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    Which, as I explain, is exactly where Leia could be... on Yavin, but off camera. You were saying she should be in the briefing. I'm saying she doesn't have to be.

    I read all of this thread, and went back to be sure I didn't miss something you said... the only thing I find is this:

    How does this suggest, in any way, that Antilles has already left with Bail when we see R2 and Threepio on Yavin 4? Again, I don't recall the specific dialogue (and can't seem to find it with a cursory Google search)... but even if Bail says something to Captain Antilles like "Get ready to..." , it still doesn't mean that Antilles actually left with Bail Organa and left the droids on Yavin 4.

    My apologies as I used your post to illustrate a point. While you may very well have enjoyed the film (glad you did) there are plenty of people who have clearly expressed that they do not like this film because they perceive this, and other plot holes ("several transmissions were beamed to THIS ship..." ), that do not necessarily exist. They are based on some assumptions about things that happen off screen.

    If I seem overly dramatic, that is certainly not my intent. I just do not understand how there can be such a vocal minority who seemingly always try to rip everything apart. No movie is perfect. When you are trying to create new movies within, and limited by, the framework of a movie first established 40 years ago, while balancing the need for creating drama and emotion in the best possible way for not just the diehards, but the general movie audience (because after all, that's what the overall objective is, make money...), there are going to be slight inconsistencies. I have absolutely no problem with discussing those things and holding the filmmakers accountable to ensure we get the best films possible.

    Having said that, there is in fact a vocal minority who seem to always have their mind made up that the new films will not measure up to their preconceived notions and standards for what Star Wars should be. I guess what I am trying to say is I am so thrilled with how these movies are turning out that I feel really bad for those few people who are somehow disappointed. But, it seems inevitable that there will always be some people who feel that way...
     
    #50 Dark Toilet, Dec 23, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
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  11. Bargwill Tomder

    Bargwill Tomder Rebel General

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    I think I agree with both Dark Toilet and techsteveo. The nitpicking to death is a phenomenon that is unique among SW fans, but it definitely doesn't make us hate the films. I have tons of gripes with TFA, but I still love it.
     
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  12. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Oh I agree with you. Both TFA and RO have exceeded my expectations and I'm super excited about where things are going.
    You are entitled to that. I just think it makes more sense that she is not there. Bail says "I trust her with my life" as he's leaving. That would imply she's not right there but that is where he is going. To speak with Leia. Otherwise he would have included her in the conversation with Mon Mothma. My two cents.

    The bottom line for me is RO was a great movie. But you can see where the re-writes and re-shoots may have impacted smaller pieces of the film.
    100% agree that R2 and 3PO should have been seen with Leia or walking in the hall on the Tantive IV at the end. Or maybe not at all.
     
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  13. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    There is no reason why Vader should automatically sense either Luke or Leia, because they are his children. The only reason why he ever took notice of Luke in the first place is because the latter used the Force when he set out to destroy the Death Star. Vader heard about one of the "heroes" of Yavin and learned from a spy that Luke's surname was Skywaker. From this information, Vader surmised that Luke was his son. Apparently, there are hardly any Skywalkers in the universe.
     
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  14. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    I know they should have at least been in the scene when Leia gets the plans.
     
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  15. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    I didn't mean R2 and 3PO should be literally standing next to Leia, because that would be weird, she's not their owner. R2 and 3PO actually belong to Captain Antilles and are part of the Tantive IV droid labour pool. This is described in the radio dramatisation of A New Hope, which is brilliant by the way.
    ;)
    Part 3, with the droids' first appearance:

    Note: In this original version, the Death Star plans ARE beamed to the Tantive IV. So Vader was right!
     
    #55 SKB, Dec 23, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2016
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  16. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    Yeah I know back in TROTS Bail give them to the Captain. Not standing next to her but near the rebel who goes past to deliver them.
     
  17. porkozone

    porkozone Rebel General

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    In the episode with Leia in Rebels, it is pretty clear she is being careful to keep an apparent separation between her and the Rebellion, even if she is on their side secretly. This is easily one reason why she would not be in the briefing room.

    As for the Tantine IV being docked on Raddus' ship...ehh.

    I can certainly go with it, and very, very thoroughly enjoyed that whole scene when I first watched it. I *was* having some red flags going off during the scene, but my brain was keeping them at bay in the moment because the whole thing was so much fun.

    That said, I could easily see a *very* similar scene in which Vader storms through Raddus' ship, chasing the physical copy, or even just wrecking havoc in general, knowing the plans were beamed locally to it. There could be a well-handled shot or two of someone trying to send the files to the Tantine IV on an Imperial frequency (since they knew her ship was one of the only ships NOT at Skarif), with the other rebel soldiers biding that person time. Vader storms through them all, cuts down the person at the console a wee bit too late.

    Cut to a shot of the Tantine IV wherever out in space, and have the same exact scenes with Leia.

    Cut back to Vader and a stormtrooper at the console can state that the transmission appears to have been sent to the Tontine IV, a consular ship. Vader could have known whose ship that was, and have a line saying something to the effect of confirming his suspicion of Bail, Leia, and Alderaan as Rebels sympathizers.

    You don't have to see a ship physically fly away with Vader in the foreground to get a sense of "getting away". I think it would have been more effective to have him finally have the "smoking gun" that allows him to go after her.
     
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  18. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    A few random thoughts.

    Given the choice between the way Leia got the DS plans in Rogue One, and the way she got them in the Brian Daley radio drama, I've got to go with the radio version as far as which one dovetails the best with events at the beginning of ANH.

    As a MOVIE experience, though, I think the Rogue One version is the clear winner. Yeah, there are a few awkward things that need to be overlooked, but then again we've had some of that in damned near every other Star Wars movie too. The "beamed transmissions" thing doesn't work all that well with what we see in Rogue One, but it's certainly nothing close to a deal-breaker. And it makes room for one helluva fun space battle (which was, in fact, NOT part of the radio drama version, despite having been mentioned prominently in the ANH opening crawl. So, we've got some tradeoffs here, and I think we ended up with a really enjoyable movie.

    The droids on Yavin IV. Now that's one of the few things in this movie that actually makes me cringe. (Evazan and Ponda Baba is another.) Because yeah, by the time we see the droids in their little cameo, Raddus and his flagship (with the Princess' ship in tow) are, I'm fairly sure, already on their way to Scarif. IMHO, it would have been far better to show the droids chatting with that silver 3PO unit on the blockade runner as Rebel soldiers run past at the end of the movie.

    But again, a blink of the eye and that bit is over. I'll always notice it, but it's nothing that's gonna kill the movie for me or anything even vaguely close to it.

    As for Leia not appearing in the Yavin briefing room in Rogue One, let's not forget - until Vader caught her over Tatooine, Leia operated behind the cover of her role as a Senator. She HAD to be isolated from events like the big Rebel meeting to decide what to do about the Death Star. It was only once it became obvious that the situation was far more dire than anyone had predicted that Bail decided to send her on that mission - which, at the time, was ONLY going to be to go to Tatooine to convince Obi Wan to come out of hiding and aid the Rebellion. Once Admiral Raddus ended up taking the fleet to Scarif, events unfolded so quickly and uncontrollably that Leia and her ship ended up being the only way to get the Death Star plans out of the Scarif system, let alone to the Rebel base.
     
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  19. Bargwill Tomder

    Bargwill Tomder Rebel General

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    Just a small thing, but Pablo Hidalgo has stated that Raddus hadn't left yet when 3PO and R2 were at Yavin, he was just getting ready. I can buy that, even though it's less than crystal clear story-telling.
     
  20. Bosc

    Bosc Force Attuned

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    This is a good point. I believe the line is "he's returned to his ship. He's going to fight." We don't know where his ship is, or how one gets to it. Raddus could be anywhere. I'd rather we didn't have to use a bit of head-canon to get there, but it doesn't take much to get it to make sense.
     
    #60 Bosc, Dec 31, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
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