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SPECULATION Was Anakin force ghost a Luke's fantasy ?

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by Bandini, Aug 31, 2016.

  1. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebelscum

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    When Anakin starts killing Tusken Raiders, Qui-Gon yells "Anakin! Anakin! Noooo!"

    Anakin himself is seemingly too blind with rage to hear it, but (according to the novelization) Yoda hears it and understands its significance.

    In my opinion, Anakin is exactly the same kind of ghost as the others. There have always been discussions about how Anakin was able to do it without training, but the most commonly cited ideas are:
    -Anakin is the chosen one with the highest midichlorian count ever. This may give him special abilities.
    -Anakin sees Obi-Wan disappear and seems surprised. This may have given him a hint that a new technique was available.
    -Anakin may have sensed the presence of the ghosts of Obi-Wan and Yoda.
    -The ghosts of Obi-Wan and Yoda may have helped Anakin become a ghost.
     
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  2. eeprom

    eeprom Rebel General

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    I thought that was just recycled audio from TPM ("Anakin! Drop!") being overlaid for effect. Interesting take.
    For me, it was adequately addressed with Yoda’s line in ESB: “Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future. The past. Old friends long gone.”

    Remember, Luke hears O.B. at the end of ANH, but he doesn’t actually SEE him until ESB, three years later. Could be it wasn’t possible until HE was capable enough with the Force. That’s more where I’m leaning I think.
     
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  3. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebelscum

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    I'm sorry but I don't understand why you are trying to frame this as my interpretation. It was confirmed by Ben Burtt, it is in the novelization, and it is even in the closed captioning. It is canon.

    Now, there is a separate question about whether it is actually Liam saying "Noooo!" which will probably be debated forever, but whether or not it is Liam, there is no question it is Qui-Gon.
     
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  4. eeprom

    eeprom Rebel General

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    Well, no movie novelizations before TFA are canon and all Ben Burtt is saying is that it’s definitely Qui-Gon’s voice being heard. Not specifically that he’s a ghost trying to communicate with anyone. So, for me, it’s an interesting interpretation that isn't officially confirmed. Either way, it’s pointless since ROTS and TCW both blatantly confirm Qui-Gon was able to preserve himself after death.
     
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  5. Ben_Kenobi_2003

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  6. Daft Ada

    Daft Ada Clone Commander

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    Before hearing the audio commentary and before reading the novelisation, it was clear to me that it was Qui Gon whose voice Yoda was hearing in his meditation. I'm surprised you're questioning it, to be honest.

    I've never thought too much about how and why Anakin becomes one with the Force, other than it was his act of self-sacrifice (similar to the act of letting go of one's attachment to the physical self) that united him with the Force. But comments from George Lucas regarding Obi-wan and Yoda somehow "helping" Anakin cross over contradict that theory.
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Rebel General

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    I'm not questioning whether it's Qui-Gon's voice being heard, it clearly is. I'm questioning whether it's definitely meant to convey that ghost Qui-Gon is actively reaching out to Yoda in that scene.
     
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  8. Daft Ada

    Daft Ada Clone Commander

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    As opposed to...?
     
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  9. eeprom

    eeprom Rebel General

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    I haven’t watched AOTC all that many times – I’m just not a fan. I remember seeing it in the theater when it came out and hearing Qui-Gon’s voice in that scene. My assumption at the time (and since) was that Yoda was experiencing what Anakin was in that moment, including emotional memories. I figured we were just hearing Liam Neeson’s TPM audio being reused as a memory of Anakin’s that Yoda was overhearing. All I heard was "Anakin!".

    The thought had never occurred to me that this was Qui-Gon as a Force ghost reacting to what Anakin was doing in that scene. I'm not aware of a canon source that confirms this, so that's where I've been looking at it all this time. Make sense? I have no problem with my perception being wrong about this.
     
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  10. NunbNuts

    NunbNuts Rebelscum

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    The novelization is a little more vague about it, Luke thinks he sees their images dancing in the flames of the Ewok bonfires but isn't sure if it was real or not. The movie is obviously much more on the nose and I think we're supposed to take it at face value that they're all really Force ghosts. And seeing as Anakin and Obi-Wan look at each other and make eye contact I think we can either assume they're all real or all fake, not that Anakin alone was a figment of his imagination.
     
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  11. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel General

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    If Qui-Gon did not complete his training, then neither did Yoda and Obi-Wan, considering that he was the one who taught them.



    Why?
     
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  12. eeprom

    eeprom Rebel General

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    For better or worse, TCW is canon. Qui-Gon pointed Yoda in the right direction, but it was the Force priestesses that taught Yoda about ‘ghost-ification’. Obi-Wan’s journey to do the same isn’t as well documented. I thought maybe Yoda taught him, but when would that have been? Remotely while meditating on different planets?
    Becoming a Force ghost was established to require exhaustive specialized training. It involved a level of self-realization and actualization that Vader most definitely never undertook. Did he just fall into it? Beginner’s luck? No sweat for the ‘chosen one’? If that’s what we’re supposed to believe, then so be it. Otherwise it doesn’t make much sense.
     
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  13. Darth Mod

    Darth Mod Rebel Trooper

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    Time may also move differently once one "passes over". Anakin could have been on the other side for decades learning how to ghostify himself while it was only a matter of moments on this side
     
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  14. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    He seemed clear to him, he got a 4 sec look & he was right there,
     
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  15. Daft Ada

    Daft Ada Clone Commander

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    Do Force ghosts become more real as time passes? In A New Hope, Obi-wan is just a disembodied voice. In The Empire Strikes Back, he appears just as he did in life, on both Dagobah and Hoth (on Hoth he has his hood up...so presumably he can feel the cold). In Return of the Jedi, not only can he sit down on a log but also the branches on the trees move as he passes by them.
     
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  16. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebelscum

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    Well so is Rebels, and we saw that Yoda can communicate remotely even to Ezra, who has presumably never met him.

    I think it's pretty clear that Yoda taught Obi-Wan between episodes 3 and 4:

    Yoda: In your solitude on Tatooine, training, I have for you. An old friend has learned the path to immortality. One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force... Your old master. How to commune with him, I will teach you.

    So either Yoda telepathically communicated info to Obi-Wan while they were both in exile, or maybe he just gave him a quick intro that was enough for Obi-Wan to hear Qui-Gon, and then Qui-Gon taught him from there. Possibly both.
     
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  17. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    I was curious as to why Leia didn't seem him also.
     
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  18. Daft Ada

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    That's why I think this is something personal to Luke. Oddly, the question of why Leia didn't see the ghosts has never occured to me. One of the upsides of internet forums is that a fan will suggest something that's never occured to a seasoned old fart like me (!) despite countless viewings of the films.

    Regarding the other issue of Yoda being able to communicate with another Jedi from across the galaxy, when he says in TESB "This one, a long time have I watched" it suggests to me that a Jedi who is totally at peace and at one with the Force is able to view and interract with people and places regardless of their geography.
     
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  19. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    Good point, I was just curious hoping Leia would've seen them.
     
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  20. Addi Ras

    Addi Ras Jedi General
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    In the now legends book A TRUCE AT BAKURA Anakin makes a private visit to Leia it does not go well she basically tell him to p*** ** back to where he came from & not to bother him again. Intrestingly she is more hacked off at him for his treatment of Han then her own.
    It also suggested that this force ghost thing is time limited as. But this is all legend now though hopefully they will introduce a similar scene into the new Canon at some point.
     
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