Was Ben genuine when he asked Han for help?

You just spun my head right round right round .

 

My take on this was it was clever storytelling and a great twist. We - the audience - think Ben is asking Han for help in turning back to the good. But, actually he was asking him to "help" him by allowing him to kill him and extinguish the light he talks about to Vader's helmet. In Ben's view, killing Han ends his torment and confusion by totally banishing the light and turning him fully to the dark side. This is the help he asks Han for. Han, like us, misunderstands this and unwittingly allows Ben to kill him, thus "helping" him, but not in the way he intended.

 

While I generally agree with this, I really didn't ever think that Ben was asking for help from his father to turn him back from the dark side.

 

True - having seen him fighting Finn in the forest in the trailers, we knew he would not turn back to the good side at that point.

 

"My name is Be...Kylo Ren. I'm a Force Addict, but I've been Light Side free since I killed my father."

"Hello, Kylo!"

 

This scene is tricky - at one point when he tries to give the light-saber to HAN, i do believe that he's truly conflicted. And maybe somewhere deep inside wants to go back to the light side and his family. But as someone mentioned above, the star disappearing was a visual parallel for Kylo, so for now the Dark side won.
However i do believe that Kylo/Ben will still be conflicted about his choices in the next film, it's integral to the type of character he is, plus - and this was my favorite part - HANs hand gently touching Bens face as if to say - "It's ok son, i forgive you." was genuinely heartbreaking, and will have a lasting effect on Kylo. at least IMO

Edit - spelling

 

did anyone notice that Han has only one hand on the lightsaber the whole time?
He doesn't even use his left hand and try to turn it away from his body.

What if Kylo didn't want to kill Han, but needed for whatever reason (there is a theory that Ben is a setup to get to Snoke who is Darth Plagueis)

Han had only his right hand on this lightsaber! Even as they fought for control over it.
He let it happen at least. At worst, he pushed the button.

But Kylo was truly torn. When you look at his face when Han says "come home" there is SO MUCH PAIN.
God, Driver killed it.

Also: the guy who caught a blastershot from Poe midflight got shot by Chewie when nothing else was going on.
Yeah, he was distraught, alright.

 

I've wondered this too- because I just don't know. At the time, I thought he was just toying with Han. I might have misinterpreted that, though. He did show several moments of doubt throughout the movie, as others have mentioned. I guess I'll have to see it a few more times to really make up my mind.

As for turning back to the light- I think it's possible, but only if we come to find out that his going over to Snoke was not his own idea. That he was somehow captured and brainwashed or secretly influenced by Snoke. If he did it of his own volition, then he's pretty much a psychopath and there's no redeeming him. That just doesn't seem to be the case, though.

He has doubts about his own devotion to the dark side- but it also seems he has doubts about the dark side itself. It's not just that he thinks he might be weak. If he's drawn to the light at times, that's an entirely different matter. I don't think he's extinguished that attraction he has for the other side. He can overcome his perceived weakness, but how is he going to convince himself there's nothing "good" about being good?

Some philosophers, like Augustine, have thought that people can develop virtues or vices by repetition, or habit, even if they don't really feel it all the time. I think that's what Kylo's doing. At some level, he's trying to convince himself he's truly gone to the dark side, because he's done dark-side things. I'm not sure if it's true- although he has committed one of the worst imaginable crimes. We'll see. For sure, he's an interesting character, superbly portrayed by Driver.

 

Yeah I doubt he WANTED ago, but he knew what he had to do...he believed that Snoke is Kylo's far and Han is BEN's father...typical character disassociation.

 

Welcome to the Cantina!

I like this idea. Fussel2107 has thought about it too...

 

Most definitely. Ben was genuinely conflicted and he needed Han's help in resisting the Light.

 

Absolutely. If Kylo Ren was a cold-hearted killer, he would have struck down his father without emotion. There is clear turmoil within the character of Ben Solo and he is struggling to become the person Supreme Leader Snoke is training him to be.

 

As others have stated, I'm certain that Kylo was talking about killing Han. Patricide is what he "had to do" and he wasn't quite "strong enough" to do it.

The key to Kylo's character is that his view of the force is the opposite of what we've heard in the other films. Where the other trilogies were all about resisting (or embracing) the Dark Side, Kylo is all about resisting the Light. Compassion tempts him, just as anger tempted Luke in RotJ. He's been brainwashed with a Dark Side philosophy that is quite different from the Sith, from what we've seen so far.

So Ben believed that he needed to kill is father. That was his "trial" in a manner of speaking. Han "helped" him do it by being a willing sacrifice. I have no doubt that Han understood what was happening ... but it didn't matter. Any good parent would die for their child, and Han was prepared to do it. By reaching out (even after the deed), he showed Ben that love is stronger than hate or fear. That's the heart of Star Wars, the "moral" of the story, and Han Solo embodied it with his last breath.

And Ben saw it. It tore him up inside. I've gotta give huge points to Driver for portraying the internal conflict with such skill, and to Ford for giving the role his all.

 

Classic answer to Who ignited Kylo's saber?:

vagrantwade 43 points 20 hours ago

Spoiler Alert: The dark side force user who is basically told by his master to kill Han Solo, who happens to also own the lightsaber, did in fact ignite it.

 

There definitely was turmoil within the character of Ben Solo. But is that really what we saw by the time he strode onto the bridge?

Just before he faced Han, he may have already succeeded in becoming the person Snoke wanted him to be- because a really cold-hearted killer would've played with Han like a cat with a mouse. That's the feeling I just can't shake. After the bridge encounter, there's no evidence he's still conflicted. So- was he playing with Han or was his confusion genuine? I'm afraid that's a question that won't really be answered until movie VIII.

 

Ren seemed genuinely torn at points in the movie, but when he faces Han he seems to make a final decision. And now that his training is to be finished by Snoke, it's going to be difficult to see him turned back to the light. An honestly, I think it makes it more interesting when/if (and I do think it will happen) he finally faces Luke. Because Luke will try to turn him, but I think a pivotal point in the trilogy will be where we find out whether Luke is willing to kill his former apprentice and nephew, or sacrifice someone he loves because he can't face his greatest failure.

To me it makes it more interesting than another moment of someone turning to the light or dark side.

 

Spot on. This is exactly my take on things.

 

Every time I remember that scene my face is like this:



Yeah, been watching the OT as a form of reassurance of better times for Han and Leia lol.

I reckon Ben (or his current ego, Kylo Ren) has a serious conflict by the time he faces his dad. But he goes ahead. I cannot avoid thinking of the big irony on this from the scene at ROTJ where Vader senses Luke's thoughts about his friends, specially towards his twin sister, and the warning he gives him about turning Leia to the dark side if Luke doesn't. The irony is that even if Leia won't ever turn to the Dark Side, her son will.

 

That's a really great thought. If we take that one step further, the saga of Star Wars isn't just about the Skywalkers, it's about dark forces using them, and their gifts. Whenever one of them goes bad, it's because they're a pawn in a much larger game. Maybe Kylo (or Rey) will end the game by realizing Snoke is just another manifestation if Plagueis and Palpatine, and killing him. The natural orientation of the Skywalkers, maybe even of the whole galaxy, is toward the good. It takes an agent of the Dark Side to make them turn.

And it would only be right that it's Kylo who kills Snoke in the end, to avenge his father. Han can't die fir nothing, and Leia deserves better than this. If there's any justice in a GFFA, these things need to be set right. Hopefully, before she dies. (And not seconds before she dies, as with Shmi, and Darth Vader, but enough time to let her have some peace & happiness for a change).