Was Ben genuine when he asked Han for help?

He was absolutely being genuine.

Ben loved his father. The whole reason why killing Han was so important to Kylo Ren was precisely because Ben loved his father and DID NOT want to kill him. So the act of killing the father he loved was a demonstration to Snoke and himself that he was fully committed to the dark side. But did you see the pain in Ben's face as he said "I'm being torn apart. I want the pain to end..."?

Think of it this way. Ben asked for help. Ben wanted to hand over his light saber. But it was Kylo Ren who did the deed and said "Thank you."

 

I believe he was being genuine at first. There was bluish daylight illuminating his face as his Light Side emerged momentarily. But when the sun's energy was all consumed for Starkiller Base's reactor, the mood and lighting of the scene suddenly changed. Daylight suddenly vanished and the red glow of the room visually signalled a deliberate change in Ben/Kylo Ren's mood. Somehow it reminded him of his ambitions and his Dark Side resufaced and took control. The lighting of the scene was very cleverly done in my opinion.

 

It'd be interesting to note at which point in the conversation the light faded away. One of the many things I'm going to look for when I watch the movie yet again. (Including @Duke Groundrunner 's tip about the inside of a TIE fighter).

How long until this thing is released on DVD/Blu Ray?

 

I think he was tempting himself at first. Testing to see just how far he could go, but he despises Han so much amd I'm not sure why. The more Han tried to make sense with him the more his light went out.

 

My guess is that he despised him because he was a Muggle... wait, no wrong saga. Well, something like that. He despised having a non-Force sensitive father. He pulled a Voldemort move by killing the Tom Riddle in him. That is just my guess.

 

Yes, he has to be truly lost. He just offed Han Maclunkey Solo. No coming back from that.

 

Just to share my thoughts. I think Kylo saying he is torn apart is because he is having a conflict within himself. He wants to be the evil Kylo Ren but deep down there is still a part of Ben in him. The part that wants to stop the First Order & Snoke.

Ben knows the only way to do that is to draw Luke out of hiding. And the only way to draw Luke out is by doing something drastic that Luke will sense through the Force which Ben is not strong enough to do thus needing his father's help. By killing his father, Luke senses this, just as Leia did. This sets up the chain of events that will bring Luke out of hiding & help to bring down Snoke & the FO (my speculations for ep 8 & 9).

So Kylo's 'Thank you' was for the (unwilling/unexpected) help Han had to make by having to be killed by his own son in order to get Luke's attention.

 

I agree that he needed to kill his father to rid himself of the light and that is exactly what he was asking for help with from his father. So he was all like thanks pop for saying I can kill you. Not sure if it did rid him of his doubts because I felt he still has conflict.

I think Han thought he was asking to be rid of the darkness. Poor Han.

I also wonder how close they actually were. If they sent him to be trained early like Jedi were in the prequels then he wouldnt have spent much time with Han and not had a strong connection. Thoughts?

 

I really hope they explain that in the new canon but I don't see them releasing anything before Ep 8 and 9. Darn.

 

To me(I only saw the film once), I got the distinct impression that Kylo Ren was using a ruse. He wanted to draw Han Solo in by acting as "Ben".
Knowing this coy move would lower Han's guard.
Han saying Snoke manipulated or got control over Ben seemed to tick Kylo Ren off.
No one likes to feel dumb or tricked. This is why Kylo Ren became angry then lit the red saber pushing into a surprised Han Solo.

This violent act galvinized Ben's turn to the dark side & Kylo Ren.
John Williams scored a music soundtrack part with the title; Torn Apart.
Pre viewing of the film, I thought this title meant Kylo Ren would be savagely beaten in a light saber duel with Luke in the 3rd act; . Not a "emotional" meaning.

TFM


PS; I think for actor Harrison Ford it was a interesting & emotional scene in TFA because his real life son is also named Ben, .

 

Yes as you and others have said. The interesting part I think also is when Han mentions how Snoke will just replace him and I feel that makes Ben angry enough to justify his actions and conflicted at the same time. The more I think about that part of things, I think Han was referring to Rey and her being Luke's daughter. This is why I feel later Ben told Rey that she needed a master because, he wants to save her from Snoke more then anything.

 

This is why I think it would have been cool to have him kill Han and then put his helmet back on, signifying his complete rejection of Ben Solo. So that way, from a certain point of view, the good son who was Ben Solo ceased to exist and he became Kylo Ren, twisted and evil.

 

Hadn't thought of it that way. No more hope, Ben died on the bridge.

 

It was purposely ambiguous so people would think/discuss it.

 

I believe he was defiantly struggling. He always knew what he had to do, but he didn't want to do it.
Him saying "it's to late", really does signify to me that he is indeed being pulled to the light side very heavily, and is genuinely thinking about it.

 

The theory about the "double agent" aside I viewed the scene between Han and Ben to be very genuine. I even concider that it is possible that the patricide was not as horrible as it seemed from our presented viewpoint and was most probably really partly a suicide. Ben was truly torn apart by what he knew he has to do (earlier it was Snoke who directly sets him the task of killing his father...Kylo has definitely been connected with Snoke for at least a few years. It is meaningful to note that despite that his training has not been completed. It is even possible that Kylo has never even met Snoke in person before (and has just communicated with him via a hologram) (I also keep wondering what is the significance behind the reason that Kylo is being called "master of the knights of ren" is put on the same level as the act of killing his father which is the task Snoke assigns to him...? Unless of course the knights are only mentioned in passing so that the audience hears about them and then "identifies" them later in the forceback...)

Handing the sword to Han and Han also holding on to it and most importantly the exchange "Will you help me?" and Han's "Anything" and then the "Thank you" after that leads me to believe that Han may have actively "helped" his son kill him...It is just a hunch of course and based on the two actors terrific performances, but I think that we will be shown in ep.8 something that shows/implies this (that Han literally had a hand in his own death) more clearly...Of course, it doesn't diminish the fact that Ben/Kylo Ren killed Han, but we still don't know what are Kylo's motivations to get to Snoke (it is obvious that Snoke did not finish Kylo's training before for a reason and it really looked that the task of killing Han was very probably a direct condition for that to happen...) As I said. It is still unclear why Kylo turned, why Snoke has not completed his training for (for as long as possibly at least 10 years?) and importantly, on several instances Kylo is trying to quite intentionally conceal information from Snoke...(Hux also implies at one point that Kylo's personal motivations are contradicting Snoke's orders...)There is a cat and mouse game there between Kylo Ren and Snoke and certainly a lack of trust...It is also notable that Kylo objects to both the instances to use the Starkiller weapon. And on screen we have really seen only once him personally killing a person (apart from Han, that is.) I highly suspect that the whole "one apprentice betrayed Luke and destroyed it all" will probably be flipped and turn out to mean something different from what most people think it does currently...(Something of the old Kenobi, from a certain point of view type of speaking of things...)

In the novel, after Kylo and Snoke's exchange when Snoke mentioned that BB8 is with his father, when Kylo leaves the assembly room Snoke is said to grin as if he has outwitted Kylo for something...

Ren considered his reply carefully. “It does not matter. He means nothing to me. My allegiance is with you. No one will stand in our way.”
Snoke nodded. “We shall see. We shall see.”
It was a dismissal. Turning, wholly preoccupied now, Ren followed General Hux in exiting the vast chamber. When he was gone, a grotesque smile twisted across Snoke’s countenance. Then it vanished–along with the rest of the holo of the Supreme Leader.​

It is interesting how many viewers forget that Kylo Ren is Ben Solo and if Rey turns out not to be a Skywalker (which at this point is indeed a possibility and something I believe will make the stakes much higher) then the audience really should be rooting for this "villain" to turn out good and not sign him off and condemn him as irredeemable for killing Han...There is too much that we don't know yet. Indeed, even without anything to atone him for what he has committed thus far the fate of Ben Solo/Kylo Ren is really a tragedy and knowing (from Leia's words to Han) that Snoke has been poisoning his mind from a very young age, makes him a victim that we should sympathise with...

Han's sacrifice for his son will be meaningful only if Ben Solo is redeemed. And not redeemed last minute as Vader was. The scene with Han and Ben Solo on the catwalk will actually become perhaps the most powerful and iconic scenes in all of Star Wars.

I don't think the act of killing Han turned him to the Dark Side. On the contrary. In the novelization and the script and in Adam's performance we see that he is shocked and weakened. He is shot by Chewie even though we have seen him stop a blaster shot like it's nothing earlier...He is crushed and goes in the final battle damaged both physically and psychologically.

Also, I think that Ben is playing some "long game" that we still don't know about. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that. Also, I highly suspect that he is probably the only Skywalker in the story (it raises the stakes much more if that indeed is the case) and if the speculation that Rey is possibly a descendant of Kenobi, then at the end the two will join forces to defeat Snoke which will be a terrific story arc and would be a great way to close the symmetry of all the movies. People have analysed before the "ring composition" style in the Star Wars movies. I believe (and hope) that these sequels are following that arc and so far to me it looks as they are very consciously doing.
If we look at the Star Wars films as a whole the role of Obi-Wan in this Skywalker saga is huge, and I think already naming Han and Leia's son Ben is a nod to that already.

People who say he is unredeemable for killing Han are not seeing the bigger picture. Hopefully Ep. 8 will develop and show more clearly what Kylo's motivations are. I'm quite sure that we will see that scene with Han again in ep. 8, but in a different light.
It is a fact that Snoke gave Kylo the test to kill his father - it is evident both in the movie and the novelization and script. The way I see it is that this was a condition made for Snoke to complete Kylo's training. For all we know Kylo Ren has been on the side of the FO for years, but for some reason Snoke has not completed his training which is very telling I think. I even suspect that Kylo may have not even seen Snoke in person before. That Snoke and Kylo Ren are playing a cat and mouse game is evident.

We already know that Kylo Ren is not in agreement with Hux and Snoke about their use of the Starkiller weapon - both times Hux and Snoke want to use it Kylo is quite evidently against and in both cases tries to offer an alternative. Not to mention the fact of the hidden in plain sight significance of Kylo Ren not joining Hux's nazi-like rally ! and observing the firing of the weapon in silence at the Finalizer. (A detail which for some reason most people don't analyse.)

And hopefully taking all the 3 sequel movies in context the people who now have the myopic stance of hating Kylo Ren for killing off our favourite character, will then re-watch these scenes very differently and understand why Han had to die.

We saw Han lovingly touch his son's cheek at the end. Han already forgave his son. And so shall we.

(Sorry for the long rambling post...Have been thinking about this a lot...)

 

I say he was genuine. Kylo Ren is a very unstable character. It didn't take much for him to hand his lightsaber over to Han; he only needed the light (Han and the sun) to help him. And once that sun had disappeared, Ben was easily consumed by the darkness and became Kylo Ren again.

That is why Kylo Ren lost his battle against Rey. He is too vulnerable. I like to think that him and Rey are similar in that manner; they both can be very strong with the dark side and or the light side. And we see that they will go on very different paths in the next movies.

 

The scarier he sounds the more sure of himself that he sounds ...

 

whooo ~ that's quite a post! excellent analysis. i don't believe Han participated in his own death, but i agree with much of the rest of your perspective.

Snoke is torturing Kylo Ren to keep him from self-actualizing and hold him on a short leash. the more i watch, the more i see an overtly abusive relationship just as Han describes it: "he's using you and when he's finished, he'll crush you." in the novel, Snoke threatens to use Rey to teach Ren a lesson ("you need a reminder,"he says) because he's mad at Ren's failure. it's awful.

and Ben is so brainwashed, so fearful, so paralyzed by his confusion, he can't act against Snoke even though somewhere in there he knows he's in a downward spiral. he is the consummate victim.

and i couldn't agree more that all the people who are outraged at the death of Han should point that outrage against Snoke. and hope for Ben's redemption. for Han's sake, for his legacy, for Leia's sake, for Luke's, and for Ben himself. if Ben goes down, they've all failed. is that really the Star Wars that anybody wants to see?