1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Was Ben genuine when he asked Han for help?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by Suspicious Moon, Dec 20, 2015.

  1. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,794
    Likes Received:
    15,181
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,163
    Ratings:
    +26,536 / 845 / -253
    To be fair, Kylo WAS probably A 5 YEAR OLD PAYCHOPATH .
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  2. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    psychopathology is not really in his profile as far as what we've been presented. if he was psychopathic he would not likely be conflicted.

    if we're going to speculate what he was like as a child, the profile that would better suit him would like be that he was imaginative and optimistic, but isolated, insecure.

    for Snoke to get his claws in him, Ben was likely desperate for attention (even negative attention) and felt deeply misunderstood.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,794
    Likes Received:
    15,181
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,163
    Ratings:
    +26,536 / 845 / -253
    First off, I was completely kidding. Also, you don't hear voices and NOT be a psychopath or anything similar. Yes, he craved he attention that his entire family didn't give him "for the greater good" which led it to be easier for Snoke to take him and made it easier to resent his own kin which is why he is so torn .
     
  4. Undeleted Scenes

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2015
    Posts:
    44
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    17
    Credits:
    578
    Ratings:
    +53 / 5 / -0
    I like this theory. I hope it plays out this way. I suspect Kylo will have to die since we can't forgive killing Solo.
     
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  5. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Posts:
    832
    Likes Received:
    5,525
    Trophy Points:
    14,877
    Credits:
    5,915
    Ratings:
    +7,305 / 20 / -6
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    3,221
    Trophy Points:
    13,167
    Credits:
    7,326
    Ratings:
    +5,168 / 26 / -7
    Yeah I should probably clean up my language a bit. These DSM labels are confusing (and questionable)! Much more interesting than sociopaths are characters like Kylo (and perhaps us) that possess feelings and empathy yet are capable of committing unimaginable violence under unfortunate circumstances and conditioning.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 27, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 27, 2016 ---
    Is the attention stuff in the novel or just speculation? I can't wait to find out his story - assuming we will of course...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,794
    Likes Received:
    15,181
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,163
    Ratings:
    +26,536 / 845 / -253
    Both . But mainly basic obvious speculation .
     
  8. FotisKaragian

    FotisKaragian Rebel General

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2015
    Posts:
    249
    Likes Received:
    505
    Trophy Points:
    4,192
    Credits:
    1,247
    Ratings:
    +785 / 28 / -7
    Great post really. My view on that is that for a Jedi to transform into a Sith, he needs to do a series of terrible things. For Kylo it is like a loading bar stuck in 60-70% because ok he killed some fellow Jedi students, did some bad stuff, but killing his own father was the next and probably the final step to his transformation to the dark side. Don't forget Vader's line from ANH, when he meets Obi Wan: "Now the circle is complete." I think this was his last step towards the Dark Side. To kill his former master!

    Snoke, just like Sidius with Vader, wouldn't be completely sold into Ben if he didn't do something notable (in a Sith's logic of course), that is why he wants him to kill Han. I suspect that in Ep. 8 we will see him saying something like "To complete your journey to the Dark Side you have to also kill Rey (or Luke, as his former master, or Leia or all of them)"... So it is a little bit a carrot and stick approach for Ben-Kylo. From what I've seen in the Vader comic series, the Emperor himself is constantly putting new challenges to Vader to ensure that it is the chosen one that he has by his side. If he dies, he is weak he didn't deserve it.

    So Vader didn't have the strength to question his Master before his very last moment. Will Ben do the same? Will he have enough of Snoke at some point? Will he turn to the light again? Good questions, that I can't wait to see them answered!

    As for his shock after killing his father, in the Finn-Rey battle I feel like he got over it and we see him even more determined... I don't know, that's my impression.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Jase Windu

    Jase Windu Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Posts:
    655
    Likes Received:
    816
    Trophy Points:
    6,567
    Credits:
    1,984
    Ratings:
    +1,257 / 44 / -10
    Yes, but not the help he implied. He wanted to help him shut out the light by dying or him being able to kill him. So yes if you call that "help" he was sincere. He wanted to end the conflict within him because he believed ending his father would complete his fall to the dark side.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,794
    Likes Received:
    15,181
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,163
    Ratings:
    +26,536 / 845 / -253
    Also as some people have said, he tried to protect his dad in front of Snoke but he had no choice in the matter at that point unless he used the light sidei F the force to fight his basic instincts against Anoke .
     
  11. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    totally just speculating. looking at the DSM is fine, i just don't like when people just slap a tag without thinking it through (not you!) ~ the character is obviously not so simple, so yeah i was trying to look at logical reasons for being able to so manipulate a child into growing into a man who would commit such evil.

    i saw it more as "well, that's didn't work out like i thought it would, but i'm going to pretend it did and take out my rage on you two because otherwise i'm going to fall to pieces". sorta like punching his blaster wound to keep his blood up.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  12. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,794
    Likes Received:
    15,181
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,163
    Ratings:
    +26,536 / 845 / -253
    Yeah I think killing Han kissed HIM off even more than it did to chewie afinn and Rey .
     
  13. Darth Chicken

    Darth Chicken Rebel Trooper

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2015
    Posts:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    117
    Credits:
    553
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0
    Well one thing Kylo knows is why Vader failed: compassion. That was the reason Vader didn't finish whatever it is that Kylo think he needs to finish. If Vader didn't have compassion for his son, he and the Emperor would have been successful in their plans. That was stated earlier in the story. Now we see his growth to the dark side by killing Han even though he shows he didn't really want to.
     
  14. Synn

    Synn Rebel Trooper

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Posts:
    9
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    117
    Credits:
    571
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0
    He was genuine in his request. What we don't see is who ultimately turned the saber on. If Han did he robbed Kylo of completely going dark and Kylo would still have retained a bit of light! That also means Kylo may still have sentiment and compassion!
     
    • Original Original x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Wise Wise x 1
  15. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,794
    Likes Received:
    15,181
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,163
    Ratings:
    +26,536 / 845 / -253
    That's original but I think Kylo turned it on ...
     
  16. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    well that's a cool way to look at it!

    i tried to watch close when i saw it yesterday and i don't think there's enough room for true ambiguity in the scene. Ren thrusts the blade twice. and if Han had robbed him, the "thank you" makes less sense (though i guess you could argue Ren thought it wouldn't make a difference if Han "helped").

    i'd sure like to hope there's more to the moment then him just doing his father in, but i'm still not seeing it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    3,221
    Trophy Points:
    13,167
    Credits:
    7,326
    Ratings:
    +5,168 / 26 / -7
    True that - and I sense his grandfather's compassion in Kylo still. (And welcome to the Cantina!)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Posts:
    832
    Likes Received:
    5,525
    Trophy Points:
    14,877
    Credits:
    5,915
    Ratings:
    +7,305 / 20 / -6
    I actually have a strange sort of feeling that when Rey turns the mind probe on Kylo and says to him "You are afraid that you will never be as strong as Darth Vader", what is interesting is the use of the word "strong" instead of "powerful" there is a subtle semantic difference between the two words. Anakin has said several times that he wants to become the most powerful jedi ever and Pals is always talking about power. If I'm not mistaken, never do they mention anything about strength. Why do I have the feeling that Kylo's fear of not being as strong as Vader is actually meaning something completely different from what most of the audience now thinks...Why do I think that it refers to the strength of Vader turning against his master at the end and turning to the light side? This ties with my theory of Kylo being undercover...and even if he is not, something about this worry of him about matching Vader's strength, and not his power is very intriguing to me...In any case, that he will turn against Sonke and be the one (probably uniting with Rey) to destroy Snoke at the end is practically guaranteed in my opinion...

    Also, I think the worry about matching vader's strength also ties to the mysterious conversation of Kylo with Vader's mask...What is the common destiny that Kylo says he shares with his grandfather? ("I will fulfil our destiny. I will finish what you started.") I have seen too many people extrapolating (wrongly in my view) that what Vader started was to kill all jedi and to (again wrongly) say that this is Kylo's goal. I feel strongly against such rash conclusions...
     
    • Like Like x 3
  19. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    3,221
    Trophy Points:
    13,167
    Credits:
    7,326
    Ratings:
    +5,168 / 26 / -7
    I agree. And I have a hunch (just a hunch) Han was aware of this too which I hinted at earlier...
    ... alas, to no "original" tags :( - just kidding, great minds think alike! Or is it fools never differ? :p

    Welcome to the Cantina @Synn!
     
    #99 Moral Hazard, Jan 27, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2016
  20. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    while i don't share a belief in the Kylo Ren double-agent theory, i do agree that the choice of the word "strong" is very deliberate.

    Ren's problem isn't power ~ he has (up until he crashes into Rey) unmatched power. but he absolutely lacks strength ~ and specifically lacks strength to stand on his own and to use his power constructively.

    when he confronts his father on the bridge, he calls Ben Solo "weak and foolish like his father". weakness is his worst fear. and of course it is: he's been manipulated into doing heinous things he knows is wrong and yet he can't stand up against it.

    "i don't know if i have the strength to do it", he says. again: not the power (he absolutely has the power), but he lacks the strength (will). and even in doing it, he still lacks the will.
     
    • Like Like x 2
Loading...

Share This Page