Was Ben genuine when he asked Han for help?

When he hands over the saber do you think he did so with the possibility of letting Han actually take it?

 

Recently saw an interesting video about whether it was Han or Kylo Ren who ignited the lightsaber in that scene. I like to think it was Han who did because he realized that if Ben didn't kill him, Snoke would hunt Ben down and kill him.

The dialogue makes sense too. "I know what I have to do but I don't have the strength to do it. Can you help me?" "Anything."

It would be interesting to see that as a twist in the next episode. Han sacrificed himself to save his son.

 

i do.

i think if there wasn't a possibility that he could actually surrender, the scene is diminished and Han is a bigger fool than just a father who loves his son too much. Ren even drops the helmet (the heaviness of the clang of it being significant: casting off the burden of that persona), and offers the saber with his left hand (someone else described this, i think, as a Kendo thing).

for whatever it may be worth, here's a subtextual reading on the lines (what i get from it):

"it's too late" [i wanna come home, but i don't see how that can happen]
"come home, we miss you" [no subtext there, he means it]
"i'm being torn apart" [great, you offer me what i want, but you don't get it, Dad, i can't just come home--my life is a mess!]
"i want to be free of this pain" [i don't know what i'm doing, i'm terrified, and you're killing me by coming here; i can't deal with what i've become or how you look at me or the fact that i don't trust you]
"i know what i have to do but i don't know if i have the strength to do it" [Snoke wants me to kill you. if i kill you the pain will stop. i'll be all Dark side magical and the pain will stop and i won't have to think about it being too late because i can never turn back after that and i won't ever want to go home again.]
"will you help me?" [you are my father and if you ever really loved me, you would want me to stop being in this horrific pain]
"yes, anything." [no subtext there, he means it]
[much death occurs]
"thank you" [decision made! i have agency!] followed immediately by: [this doesn't feel right] then: [holy crap i made a choice, but what the hell choice was it? did that just happen? shouldn't i feel different?] i think it's telling that he's not gloating, he's not angry, he's in shock.
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i feel like this is all reinforced later when he confronts Rey and Finn and says "Han Solo can't save you now". to me, he's reflexively saying "he can't save me either".

i know other people have different reads on what happens in this scene (hence the thread, right?), but given what we're presented about Kylo Ren within TFA, this makes total sense to me.

 

I'm really curious about what happened to Ben that makes him wants to be a Sith lord / dark Jedi so bad...Why is he so afraid about being weak or not strong enough..."weak and foolish, like his father"...Is like the story of some guy who joins a gang to just to be cool, feeling better with himself, powerful, gaining everyone's "respect" (fear)....but then realizes that the belonging to that group means to do some very dark stuff. Then he convince himself is "the only way", thinking he never ever wants to be the guy it was before (for some reason that we don't know, he hates that guy... trauma?, ambition?, thirst of power?...other?) And once he took that path there is no going back, even when he feels "the call from the light" he knows that "it's too late". Even when HE DOES KNOW that Snoke will kill him eventually....

Something interesting in the scene is what I call the "let's flip a coin" situation. When Kylo takes off his helmet and drops it, the helmet don't falls to the abyss below them...It seems to me like a symbol...a kind of "last chance to return to the light side" (something like him thinking "if the helmet falls maybe is a signal, but if it stays...like a let's give it a last try... "heads or tails")
Please watch that scene...the way Kylo looks the helmet when it stays beside him, instead of fall from the platform...It's like..."No way, it's a sign, it IS my destiny..." I think that is the moment when he decided to kill Han, but without the strength to do it. Not until the light was all gone. He decided to kill him (REASON) but pretty much like Vader there was a conflict within his soul (FEELINGS)
Well I found this Ben/Kylo character so interesting, so many layers to work with for an actor/writer/director...I wish GL had worked on Anakin in a similar way...

May the force will be with us, always

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 12, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 12, 2016 ---

This makes so much sense to me. I'm still not sure (as I said before) if the decision was made here or not. But I think you definitively got a point here...

 

i feel like the decision is made when the light goes out. otherwise there would be no tussle over the lightsaber.

i admit it's ambiguous whether he panics or what pushes him to the final decision (fear, i'm guessing: if i surrender, what happens to us? we both die because we're not getting out of here alive).

i think everything in the scene hinges on his distrust for his father.

Ben feels betrayed by Han for whatever reason (whether legitimate or planted by Snoke). he doesn't believe that Han can save him. just like Han didn't believe he could be saved until Leia pushed him.

that's what makes it so effin tragic.

 

You could well be right @FN3263827. I might have just seen it differently and/or misread Kylos acting. I have to hold my hands up to mishearing the help me line as hug me on my first viewing! Ha! I also thought Kylo was buying time. I didn't and still don't really get Kylos motivation other than he wants to be really powerful.

If Kylo wanted to be dark to save someone I might be more inclined to truly comprehend his desire to be on the dark side and thus kill papa Solo. But he just wants power. And so although I believed his emotions were sincere I just felt that he never intended to hand over the saber.

Considering how far gone Kylo was, at no point in that scene did I think he would turn back or not kill Han. So from that perspective I thought the whole "help me" thing wasn't genuine but rather, well maybe insincere more than a ruse?

Like it didn't matter what Han said and Kylo wasn't being straight with him anyway. I guess it might have been genuine in a warped way but not truly. And Kylo is a bright guy, he could see he was stringing Han along.

 

let me submit this for your consideration:

i don't think power motivates Kylo Ren. he has power. so much of it he doesn't know what to do with it.

i think he wants what Rey wants and what the movie serves up as it's main theme: a place of belonging.

he wants to understand how he fits into the galaxy. Snoke is the only one who has given him that: focus, direction. is Snoke the source of his Vader obsession or just steering it conveniently to serve himself?
does Ren feel destined/fated/entitled? probably all of the above.
who taught him that or enforced it? Snoke?
how much of his thinking is even his own? very little, i suspect at this point. he can't even defend Snoke without resorting to rote statements ("the Superme Leader is wise"...)

at his core, Kylo Ren is lonely. isolated.

imagine that everything flows from this premise: trying to heal that hole in his psyche/heart/whatever is what motivates him.
it drives him connect to Vader, submit to Snoke, it's the source of his disappointment and fear of his father, and it's why he latches onto Rey....

you say he's a "bright guy". i don't think he's stupid, but he is emotionally compromised (and probably from a young age). smart people can make spectacularly stupid decisions under those circumstances. he's clearly smart enough to know his father's right on that bridge--that he's just being used. but he's not strong enough to fight his indoctrination.

 

Well, you've just opened my eyes to Kylo's motivation. That make's a lot of sense and actually chimes with what JJ was saying about him - I think I just overlooked it, rather lazily. Maybe too focused on what has motivated characters in Star Wars in the past.

That whole idea of why he feels compassion for Rey as well - inspired. Like that. Kind of makes me think of the look that Rey gives him when he takes the mask off. In a way, they are kindred spirits. Both view themselves as being without parents, both alone. Jesus, Kylo even says that. Man, how did I miss that?

Consider me schooled. Thanks mate

 

thanks, man. i never want to bludgeon people with my viewpoint, but i do feel strongly that this read is supported in the material.

i think the character is hard to deal with because he does this unspeakable thing.
but kasdan, arndt, and abrams gave us a scary, physically imposing, Force-wielding villain who without the mask is just a weak, frightened, lost child.
and perhaps that's to be pitied more than vilified.

...at least until viii when he comes back monstrous and we can more legitimately hate him for himself. hahaha. [we'll see ~ i still have hope for him].

 

That would be even more tragic and poignant and makes me love Han Solo even more - if that's even possible. *tears*

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 12, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 12, 2016 ---

Agree. At first I hated the guy but now I found him fascinating. During the first days I would felt how bitter sweet was the development of Han and Leia's ROTJ afterstory but I think it's fascinating the treatment they gave it (either that or the pain has been diminished by so many fun memes out there lol).

 

It would be interesting but the thing is that in the Script and novel is stated that it was Kylo Ren who ignited the lightsaber...

 

I think Kylo really did mean what he said, but "from a certain point of view"... To quote Ben Kenobi from ROTJ. (or was it the end of ESB that Luke confronts Obi-Wan about Vader being his father, and Obi-Wan confirms his previous statement that Vader murdered Luke's father was true... From a certain point of view... Man! I need to watch the OT, again...)

Anyway... Back on-topic...

Kylo really, really wants to be a "bad guy," for whatever reason. Though, he feels the pull of the light. He has trouble fighting the light side. He even begs is father's old, burnt helmet to "show me again, the power of the Dark Side, and I will finish what you started." (I may have mis-quoted, but it's close to that.) Snoke even senses the conflict within Kylo.
But Kylo insists that he is a "bad guy," and wants to do whatever he can to prove to people how dark-sidey he is by killing people, torturing people, etc. All the while he is doing these things, he is still feeling the pull of the Light Side.
Like the tantrums we saw, he is like a little kid (immature and prone to fits when things don't go his way,) and he just wants the Light Side to stop "bullying" him, and let him be one with the Dark Side. But the problem is, the Light Side won't leave him alone. Maybe he inherited some of the Skywalker Light Side from his mother... And he doesn't want anything to do with it.

So, when he is on the bridge with Han, he is completely genuine when he says "I'm being torn apart. I want to be free of this pain. I know what I have to do, but don't know if I have the strength to do it. Will you help me?"
Kylo is obviously being torn between the Dark and Light Sides. He desires to go to the Dark Side, but is being tempted by the Light Side... The side that wants him to show remorse/kindness. But, he knows that this is his ultimate test. If he "falls" to the Light Side and lets Han go or decides to join him, he will be beyond "saving," and will never achieve his full potential with the Dark Side, which is his one, tunnel-vision goal.
He also fears the backlash from Snoke if he doesn't pass this ultimate test, but I think it is more of an internal struggle with his own desires, rather than a fear of being "punished for failing."

By Kylo asking for Han's help, he is essentially saying, "Dad, I love you, but you are the only thing keeping me from the Dark Side. I can't do it alone, because the pull of the Light Side is calling to me... Will you get in a position that will leave me no choice but to kill you, so I can prove to myself, Snoke, and the Dark Side, that I am a worthy successor to my grandfather?"

When Han says "Yes, anything," Kylo didn't expect Han to say that. But then, like ripping a bandage off a wound, Kylo got just enough courage for a split-second, that he was able to ignite the lightsaber. Then, Kylo ending with "Thank You" shows that the Light Side came back... But it was too late, as the lightsaber already did the job. So, Kylo takes this as one last chance to thank Han for giving him the opportunity to turn (seemingly) fully aligned with the Dark Side. Though the Light Side is still there, nagging Kylo, even though he "passed" what he thought was the "ultimate test."

The struggle between Light and Dark isn't over in Kylo, and I can't wait to see which side ultimately wins! I have my theories, but that's for another thread...