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SPECULATION Way to Cure Rey's Mary Sue accusations?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by ReyErso5280, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. ReyErso5280

    ReyErso5280 Rebel General

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    Please do not troll this thread. I will say I do love the Rey character, and more I really enjoy Daisy's performance. However I do absolutely understand about the concerns, complaints about her being a Mary Sue. which i do agree its a bit much of how much power she has in a "short period of time"

    so this is my question. do you feel if the second film didn't start immediately after TFA would some of this be more possible and people not be so up in arms? do you think ep 9 could explain all of this in a way what would make sense where the hell all of these force powers came from?

    again please don't troll this as i know its a hot topic, i do not feel its a feminist agenda and yada yada.

    for me I think it might be cool that Rey was actually trained much younger but then mind was wiped...I do not think it will be from Luke because he clearly didn't recognise her. but what if it was actually Kylo. maybe after he left lukes school he was in Jakku for some reason and met a very young Rey. maybe she was amazed by his "magic" when she was left as her family was drinking or away. he starts showing her things and develops a bond. (i mean he kept saying what girl, but this could just be a lose end)

    maybe he even had Anikin's lightsaber and was letting her hold it. (when Han said, how did you get that, maybe it wasn't lost since tESB but somehow it was found and became ben's. It was blue in the flashback) maybe then he saw she was really powerful and didn't want her to pay the same that he did (he feels betrayed by family and jedi) so he wipes mind and leaves (thats the ship we see?) thats why when she touches the lightsaber in TFA it all comes flooding back. ( and there was a deleted scene that unka plutt was at Maz castle, so maybe he's been there before and gave her the lightsaber)

    now i appreciate that there is probably some major holes in my idea. i would love to bounce ideas off others and just have a fun.
     
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  2. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

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    Rey is 19 years old.
    Kylo is 29 years old.

    Rey has been stranded in Jakku since she was 5 years old.

    Kylo/Ben was Luke's student until he was 23. Rey was 13 at this time and had been living on Jakku, without her family, for 8 years.

    Your timeline doesn't work.
     
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  3. ReyErso5280

    ReyErso5280 Rebel General

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    oh ok hahaha there you go :) like i said i had a feeling it was a stretch
     
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  4. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Rey's powers have been explained. The first episode is titled The Force Awakens. She's the awakening. The powerful light rising to the powerful darkness.

    "Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.”
     
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  5. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    Pablo Hidalgo recently reiterated what he had tweeted a long time ago--that during the interrogation scene in TFA, when Rey and Ben go into each other's minds, they, among other things, "pull from each other, in terms of skills and memories" (you can find that here at about the 14:30 mark). So basically Rey gets her Jedi mind trick (and no doubt other skills and such) from Ben. Like Leia, she has instinctively used the Force before, but now she has a skill set--or at least, pieces of one--to go with that instinct. So you're on track with Rey learning from Ben--your time line is just off a bit. ;)

    As for the rest, well, when the Force is your ally, it's powerful. If Luke had only believed, he could have lifted that X-wing. Rey believes. Doubt Yoda not. (yoda)
     
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  6. ReyErso5280

    ReyErso5280 Rebel General

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    I always thought was one of the biggest differences between Luke and Rey... he doubts so Is restricted, she believes and can unleash.
     
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  7. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    One should not mistake Rey's being extremely force powerful with Rey's being a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is a character trope. A female protagonist, usually very young, accomplished and insightful beyond reasonable belief, so unrealistically perfect she becomes uninteresting and annoying to the audience. But Rey is not like that. Her force powers although natural and raw, are not accomplished. With every challenge presented to her she becomes more powerful (that dynamic was explained by Kylo in TFA). Rey is as perplexed as every one else about her increasing powers, her baffled reaction when she mind tricks the storm trooper comes to mind.

    I think that Daisy Ridley's confident, unapologetic and radiant presence in TFA is the real culprit as to why people consider Rey a Mary Sue. She comes across as perhaps too self-assured and feisty, and on occasion a tad patronizing towards Finn. Some people may have found this annoying. I personally find Daisy's portrayal of Rey wonderful. Fun and full of life.

    In TLJ Rey is even less of a Mary Sue. She is presented as young, naive and lacking in wisdom, to such as an extent she is kindly laughed at by Luke (reed scene), tricked by Snoke and manipulated by Kylo. Rey's journey as a heroine is not about learning Jedi tricks, or how to use a light saber or how to lift rocks but rather about coming to terms with her identity, and adopting the wisdom needed to reach her full potential (in the same way Luke did in Return of the Jedi)
     
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  8. HothLeia

    HothLeia Rebel Official

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    I like Rey and Daisy's performance, but there are some issues with the character. I hope there is more development for her as I believe the character has a lot of potential.

    1. The Nobody Thing.... well, it can work but there still needs to be a reason/more insight into why she's so powerful. She doesn't have to be a Skywalker, but with all the intrigue, flashbacks, voices, and connections in the TFA to just be for a fake out...doesn't seem right. There needs to be a little more history to the character, even if she is not related to any known character. I am fine with her not being Luke's daughter etc. but make some other reason/backstory for her exceptional powers. (Science experiment? The Force? Exposure to a Force environment/object? A distant relative in her own family?)

    2. Things come to easy to her. She's good at flying, mechanics, The Force, droids, combat...give her some weaknesses. Luke had lots of talents but his character flaws sometimes acted against them (impulsive, naive, whiny, impatient). I was really starting to enjoy her mishaps with the Nuns. This was a good start.

    3. She's strong, brave, wise, kind, compassionate, heroic, empathetic, ambitious, and smart. What are her flaws that she struggles with? Leia was all these things but she also was too stubborn at times (not admitting her feelings), being a little too mean to Han, insensitive (calling Chewy a Walking Carpet), often hid her emotions, could be Harsh, and sometimes a little too over confident. We saw her kinder and more understanding side in ROTJ as her character developed and she became more honest with her feelings and future. She had a great balance of flaws and strengths.
    Giving Rey flaws will not damage her character or integrity as a female lead! It will make her character stronger and more relatable!

    She has a neat backstory (Jakku), aesthetic, some great scenes, and a wonderful actress. Please use all this potential! I think showing Rey struggle as a teacher in Ep. 9 would be a great start. She lived in isolation for so long that I think teaching a bunch of youngsters and hopefuls would be entirely foreign to her and somewhat overwhelming.
     
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  9. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Any explanation at this point would be pointless. Let the people who claim Rey is Mary Sue (UGH!) claim she is Mary Sue and just roll with the story. Actually, in my opinion, giving her some special explanation, like when she was four she fell into a cauldron full of Midichlorian soup or she was trained in the Force and had her memory wiped or anything else would just seem pathetic. Rey's special just because she is a decent human being. If you think of her as a SW counterpart to Cinderella with some anger management issues all the problems with her portrayal would just dissolve.
     
    #9 Pawek_13, Jan 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
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  10. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

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    1. You're missing the point of these films.

    2. Flying, mechanics, droids, and combat were all part of her life before the events of TFA. They should come easy to her because she's highly experienced in each. For the Force just read the point above.

    3. She's arrogant, naive, and over confident in TLJ. She believed she knew better than Luke, that she could see Kylo's future clearly and knew that she was capable of turning him. Over confidence is an understatement when she just gives herself up to the First Order.
     
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  11. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    I adore Rey, but, oh boy, did I want to smack her a couple of time during the movie.

    As per OP's question, I don't think there is anything to cure. She was never Mary Sue in the first place and if TLJ didn't make people change their minds about that, the movie where she is constantly wrong and makes huge mistakes, I'm not sure anything will.
     
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  12. Rhyoth

    Rhyoth Rebelscum

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    Have her "pull an Anakin" and go dark.
     
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  13. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Also, fun fact - one of the first thoughts that I had after TLJ was "Now nobody will have complaints regarding Rey being Mary Sue! She's really flawed in the film.". Guess I was wrong...
     
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  14. HothLeia

    HothLeia Rebel Official

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    1. Not missing it (I get it), I just don't like it because it doesn't feel complete. I am hoping for more in Ep 9. The set up in TFA leading up to the fake out just didn't feel right. Rey is extremely powerful. That's fine, but there needs to be more to her story as hinted in TFA. Nobody is fine, but there must be something else.

    2. Flying, mechanics, droids, and combat were all part of her life before the events of TFA. They should come easy to her because she's highly experienced in each. For the Force just read the point above. Absolutely and I agree. I have no problem with her being multi-talented. But she needs to have some things that she is not good at. The part when she knew more about the MF than Han was a stretch.

    3. She's arrogant, naive, and over confident in TLJ. She believed she knew better than Luke, that she could see Kylo's future clearly and knew that she was capable of turning him. Over confidence is an understatement when she just gives herself up to the First Order.[/QUOTE] But it was all spun as strength. She never had to really struggle. Her arrogance was played as confidence. She didn't suffer any consequences for her actions like Luke did in ESB. Luke completely failed for rushing to face Vader and was left dangling from Cloud City. Rey kicked Ben's ass and left somewhat unscathed for such a big battle.


    Again, I am not against the character. I like her and see a lot of neat things going on/enjoyed many of her scenes. She just needs a little fleshing out, more flaws, more weaknesses, and she has to face some obstacles that don't come easy to her because she's human. The actress does a fantastic job and Rey has lots of potential. I don't think she is a complete Sue, but she does need more development and answers.
     
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  15. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    But Rey failed too. She didn't turn Kylo Ren to the light as she was hoping she would. She was naive and she was wrong. She may be strong and proficient with the light saber, she may not have been injured or scared physically, but that didn't stop her putting herself at risk, getting played and tortured by Snoke and seduced by "complicated" Kylo. Rey's scars are psychological, being forced to accept the truth about her parents and the realization that she is not the one to redeem Kylo. There are many problems with TLJ but Rey's character trajectory is not one of them in my opinion. Rey's impulses in this film are completely relatable and human. Kudos to Ryan Johnson for that.

    My least favorite scene with Rey I must confess is that of her lifting the cave rocks in the salt planet... With her hair down and the garment folds over her shoulder she looked more like Moses performing a miracle than anything else... a bit laughable, really.
     
    #15 Kylocity, Jan 20, 2018
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  16. HothLeia

    HothLeia Rebel Official

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    1.
    My least favorite scene with Rey I must confess is that of her lifting the cave rocks in the salt planet... With her hair down and the garment folds over her shoulder she looked more like Moses performing a miracle than anything else... a bit laughable, really.[/QUOTE]



    1.This is a good point and a good start, but my problem is with the execution (afterwards). We see so much of Luke's agony, regret, despair, and struggle in the aftermath of ESB that it drastically sets up his change of character in ROTJ. We are not given enough time to see Rey's regret and emotional process. I did like the elements you mentioned and not against it, I just want more of it...to make it stronger and more apparent what she is going through, what her faults are, and what she must face in herself in Ep.9. Right now I'm just like..."eh, she'll be fine. She's perfectly capable of anything. Not worried about her."



    2.And this scene could have been so much more powerful had we seen more struggling with The Force on Luke's island. I think looking to a great female character (Korra) from the Last Airbender series is a good place to start. She begins the series extremely powerful and gifted, but struggles with her impatience, impulsive nature, and with forging a connection to the spiritual.


    I like Rey, think she is a neat character, love Daisy Ridley, and don't consider the character a full Mary Sue...but she does have a Mary Sue cloud hovering over her.
     
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  17. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I know what you mean. It is true that Ryan Johnson did not grant Luke, Rey and Kylo the nuanced dynamic they deserved in TLJ. The conflict between Rey and Luke should have had more emotional impact and depth. Their interaction in Ahch-to should have been more substantial, less porgs, milking aliens and falling rocks on oversizes rats dressed like nuns and more back story of Ben, Leia, Han, the resistance, Snoke and the first Order. Broad stroked giving some idea of context. There should have been also a clearer exposition of Rey's and Kylo's feelings for Luke, similar to TFA: "You wish he (Han) was the dad you never had... He would have disappointed you" (great writing, saying so much with so little). Yes, some of the writing in TLJ falls flat and doesn't have the impact it should, as a consequence, we need a second and third viewing to work out what Ryan Johnson was trying to communicate. It's far from a perfect film.
     
    #17 Kylocity, Jan 20, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  18. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

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    Fair reasoning.

    But I'm not sure if over exposition of "Ben, Leia, Han, Snoke, Resiatnce, and First Order" would have been more entertaining to the masses.

    Would it have filled in some history points and gaps? Yes, but this is a 2.5 hour movie, not the history channel.
     
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  19. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I said broad stokes and good writing. Over-exposition is neither. I hate complicated back stories. Simplicity and emotional attachment to the characters is far better.
     
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  20. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    There is no way to cure this...honestly it's not the fact that she is the mary sue but rather the fact that she is not connected to anyone with no explanation..
     
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