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SPECULATION Way to Cure Rey's Mary Sue accusations?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by ReyErso5280, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    Look I like Rey, and personally I think the term "Mary Sue" has been overused to the point where it gets slapped on (usually but not always female) characters that people don't like with the justification that they're too good to be true. I don't think it should apply to Rey. But. Rey needs some things in this next movie. She needs a real challenge to overcome. She's on her own, and that's a good set up, but she really needs that to be a barrier, a problem. More explanation of where her rapid mastery of the Force comes from would also be helpful. I like the explanation that the Light is raising her up to counter the Darkness in Kylo Ren. That should be expanded upon.

    In the end, Rey isn't as bad a character as people are prone to say (the internet being unfortunately conducive to hyperbole). But, she does need further development that could and should happen in this next movie.
     
  2. Chise

    Chise Rebel Official

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    The way to cure Rey being a Mary Sue accusations is to just watch tfa and tlj unbiased to recognize she fails often.
    Her last fail was not being able to turn Kylo to the light side. That was an epic fail.
     
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  3. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Ha. "Epic fail." :D
    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Chise

    Chise Rebel Official

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    Exactly...the galaxy was depending on her because "he was their only chance". All she had to do is seduce him. The boy is obviously mesmerized by her. And he would follow like a lovesick puppy. She had the easiest task in the world and couldn't turn him? Pish posh...epic fail! :D
     
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  5. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    You misunderstand me. I'm not explaining why or how fans use the term but how the term is discussed and studied in an academic context. No one uses it in literary criticism and mediastudies.The term "Mary Sue" is only discussed and used in gender studies. I'm not saying that the term is by defintion sexist or that anyone using it is a sexist as well.
     
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  6. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Not to mention the fact that it's hardly a quantifiable term.

    Any criticism of a "Mary Sue" is extremely subjective. Just look at any thread discussing it here, and you'll see that whenever Rey's flaws are measured against her strengths, some go specifically out of the way to diminish her flaws so as to further their own agenda.

    Which is to say, the term is entirely useless.
     
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  7. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Let’s see if I’m luckier now answering this post lol
    For me it all boils down to the fact that the Mary Sue is a writer’s concept. It speaks more about the writer’s motives and the reader’s prejudices about the writer than about the character per se. It is therefore not a valid tool in formal literary criticism (which is what MA was referring to I think when saying “it does not exist”) because it is far too subjective and very open to bias of the kind not desirable in academic research. According to MA ( and this is only my take on this) in Gender Studies the Mary Sue trope is considered a construct by which to undermine the perhaps legitimate pursuit of wish fulfilment female roles.

    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 1, 2018 ---
    Exactly. This is what I meant.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 1, 2018 ---
    Yes, it’s clear to me what you mean and I was trying to explain it but not very successfully. Glad you’re back!
     
    #187 Kylocity, Mar 1, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
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  8. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    (r2-d2)

    Plus, just to add a bit to my last statement-

    When it's clear that people are actively trying to paint Rey as a "Mary Sue" and won't even field arguments that do diminish their claims... kinda seems like they want to label the character as this sexist term.

    When people are informed of the term's sexist intent and history, and still argue for its use even though they're encouraged to try more effective and creative words... kinda seems like they want to use it.

    I do like to assume the good in people, but I've had enough discussions on the whole Mary Sue thing end up badly enough on here that after getting a certain amount of pushback, it's not hard to start drawing conclusions.
     
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  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    This is so sadly true.
     
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  10. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    And on the flip side, you're just as intent at ignoring the fact that often it isn't being used as a sexist term, nor do people have to cower to your viewpoint. No matter how many parades and speeches you have to proclaimeth it so. You aren't some authority on the matter, nor is there one.
     
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  11. The Nerf Herder!

    The Nerf Herder! Rebel General

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    All that they have to do is state it in the films that she gained her some knowledge of the force such as mind tricks when peering into Kylo’s mind in TFA. Instead we’re getting it in TLJ novelization. After hearing about this it kind of brought relief to me. If he was able to see her past, surely she gained some of his knowledge as well. Plus, they could easily say that she is more adept at using the force due to her willingness to believe in it, which is why I believe she is much better at using her abilities than Luke in ESB.
     
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  12. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    You hear a lot of:

    here she is a bit of a mary sue
    there she is almost a mary sue
    or, she is a mary sue most of the time

    So many people claiming she is a mary sue use the criteria in such a way. When they use language like this you:

    a. know they're forcing it
    b. the language itself shows that the term is useless.

    It is either a Mary Sue or it's not. There are no 70% Mary Sue's. Which worsens the fact that the Mary Sue terminology is a useless evaluative criterium to begin with.

     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    No, I'm well aware of the fact that some people use it without sexist intent, but when they're informed of that the rational response is to essentially say "oh man, that wasn't my intent. I'll keep that in mind, and try to use other words in the future."

    Not to go on some cringey crusade under the facade of freedom of speech just to continue to use a sexist word because you refuse to be corrected.

    I see which choice you've made, by the way.

    Right. Isn't a "Mary Sue" supposed to be an essentially perfect, idealized, white bread wish fulfillment character? How is being 70% perfect impressive? Man, if only my teachers had the same mindset. :p
     
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  14. Legend Knight

    Legend Knight Force Sensitive

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    They try to throw Luke under the Mary Sue bus too.
     
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  15. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Sorry, but you don't get to redefine terms for me. That isn't something I allow you to do. If you want to believe what you believe, go on ahead, but on the flip side you're insistant that I must cower to your wish that I view this as a sexist term(which I don't) and stop using it. Stop trying to change people to fit some new worldview. Try a little thing called tolerance.

    Or you could try thinking for yourself one of these days and being accepting of others. You cowered to your 'teachers' misdefinition of the term, now you insist others do the same.

    Well... I put them all on that bus, not under it :>. If you're looking for great characterization in blockbuster Hollywood Movies, just lol. Part of the appeal of such characters is that it allows them to be more universal and accepted by the largest crowd(to generate the most tickets and subsequently.. money). If you get detailed with such characters, it by definition limits their appeal.

    If, as a viewer, you find this type of thing intolerable... then this type of movie really isn't for you. Different strokes for different folks. Simply find other more high-brow movies you do like. But pretending you can change low-brow into high-brow so it appeals TO YOU, and not lose the audience is just :/.
     
    #195 ScumAndVillainy, Mar 2, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  16. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Yeah, I think I'll just leave it at this: there's a reason someone would be adamant on continuing to use the term, even after others attempted to educate them.

    There's a very "good" reason.

    And anyone trying the "think for yourself" argument clearly doesn't understand the irony of trying to use a tired and cliche argument in an attempt to advocate for originality. It goes without saying that I have thought for myself, and someone who preaches tolerance (while ironically advocating for sexism) should be able to realize the fallacy of trying to invalidate another's opinion in this childish way simply because they disagree.
     
    #196 cawatrooper, Mar 2, 2018
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  17. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Sure... its called.. you aren't my teacher. You have any idea how bad 'even after others attempted to educate them' makes you look? Like about 100 times worse than you trying to paint me as sexist because I simply have a different definition for a term that does not fit yours.

    The only thing separating you from evil is whether or not you're willing to go that last step and use force to 'educate' me to your viewpoint.

    Or... you can just let people be people and have their own beliefs. Not everything is a crusade and not everyone has to agree with you.
     
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  18. Legend Knight

    Legend Knight Force Sensitive

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    What are you saying that great characterization can not exist in a Hollywood blockbuster? That is wrong on so many counts if that was your intent.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  19. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    The bottom two... Blade Runner was a bomb and still only plays to very niche audiences(who like to claim that EVERYBODY Loves Blade Runner: Sequel Prompty Died @ the BO). Furiosa Road was an underperformer and didn't even make $400 million. No blocks were busted in the release of those films.

    I didn't watch either of the top two for their characterization, and I hardly look at Tobey Maguire's Spider-man as being much more than another Mary Sue. When you deal with ordinary people becoming extraordinary and/or gettin' the girl over a two-hour time period... its almost always unrealistic characterization designed to entertain an audience with a ripping yarn. Simply roll with it. That's why we go to movies.

    And just to be clear.. Hollywood has put out movies with great characterization before, but the mega-budget stuff has to appeal to a very wide-audience, or you're simply setting money on fire.

    For smaller budget with great characterization.. I always liked Unbreakable, it was certainly M. Night's best film before he lost his head up his rear... YMMV.
     
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  20. Legend Knight

    Legend Knight Force Sensitive

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    You did not watch lord of the freaking rings for characterization? So it is your fault for not finding great characterization in movies lol and also box office totals do not make or break great characters.
     
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