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SPECULATION Way to Cure Rey's Mary Sue accusations?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by ReyErso5280, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    But she was vulnerable, did fail and was imperfect. Her vulnerability is exactly what Kylo first noticed about her during the interrogation scene in TFA: her loneliness and that need of hers to belong somewhere. This vulnerability is what clouded her judgement about Kylo and made her easy pray for Snoke. She failed in recognizing the extent in which Kylo had turned to evil, ignoring Luke's warnings, forgetting about Han's murder.
    As it has been said before, she is indeed positive and good, but she is also naive and overconfident, which are, I admit, more forgiving flaws. Rey is a smart-ass, but, as it has already been demonstrated in TLJ, she doesn't know it all, or thinks she does. Those last minutes with Kylo in the throne room taught her that much.
     
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  2. BobPontes

    BobPontes Rebelscum

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    People have analyzed Rey's journey ad nauseum at this point, so let me throw a different perspective here (and pardon me if someone else already pointed this out, it's hard to skim all threads).

    The whole "Rey is a Mary Sue" thing depends on the premise that Luke Skywalker, as opposed to her, actually received substantial training in the OT.
    Is that really true?

    On screen, we see Luke receiving lightsaber training just once, with the remote ball on ANH. After that Obi-Wan dies and the next training Luke receives is from Yoda, which was clearly focused more on understanding the Force and there wasn't any lightsaber training there. People can hypothesize that Luke trained "somehow" between ESB and ROTJ but that would be by (1) himself and (2) within a time gap of a year.

    Whatever the case might be, we never really see or are led to believe in any way that Luke Skywalker received any kind of lightsaber training, ever.
    And he defeats Darth Vader, a Clone Wars veteran, Chosen One, Dark Lord of the Sith, 30+ years of lightsaber training.
    The same logic used to complain about Rey should be used here too.
    Following that same thought model it would be inconceivable for Luke to defeat Darth Vader.
    (oh and before someone points Vader is old, just remember that all his limbs are mechanic)

    (PS: I myself have zero problems with either Luke or Rey as I don't think people's proficiency with the Force/lightsaber should be measured like a numeric skill from an RPG.)
     
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  3. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    It would have been cool had Luke schooled her in lightsaber combat, and through dialogue, figured out she was used to a staff, and taught her to make a double bladed lightsaber as part of her training. She would have looked BA and there would have been progression as well as a learning moment for her.

    I think she's a Mary Sue like Jesus is a Gary Stu (assuming you take the Bible Story as a story and not history). That's the kind of character she's supposed to be. Amazing, awe inspiring, fantastic, level headed, hopeful ect... She ticks all the boxes because she's supposed to. Is that a Mary Sue? Sure, maybe, but also, that could also simply be the story they're telling. Some people have great qualities and figure things out more easily than others. Is it cheap, again, possibly, but it's also different. She stands in contrast to what Anakin should have been.

    She has as few flaws in the ST as is needed. This would probably have been true had they casted her as a man, but I think a man would have gotten nearly the same backlash. Our two saga heroes so far are Luke and Anakin, and both had considerable flaws. Anyone following them who upstaged them at that point in their lives would have gotten flak.

    So yes, she is bland, it's a side effect of that kind of story telling. Maybe they just set her up this high to take her down in EPIX, I can't say, we'll see in 2 years. Maybe she's just supposed to be this awesome. Maybe her progression is so fast because there's a dark side issue we haven't really seen manifest itself yet. There's another chapter to finish her story.

    I've had challenges with Rey's character and the Mary Sue-ness. However, I'm thinking it's less a feminist thing as a story telling idea. Even among those calling her a Mary Sue will admit she's not full blown Mary Sue, but she's getting things easy. The path to the dark side is quick and easy, and I'm curious to see if that's what all this is mounting up to. Or maybe it's something else.
     
    #43 Sparafucile, Feb 5, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2018
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  4. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    C-3P0 plugged into the Falcon and was told what was wrong with the ship. So he didn't know more, he was told more. (if I'm told there's a bad ground on my car at this exact spot, but bring my car in to get it fixed and tell the mechanic exactly where the bad ground is, it doesn't mean I know more than the mechanic, it means I was given free information, the knowledge was somebody elses.) That doesn't depict Han as not knowing how to fix the Falcon, mechanics frequently use machines to find where electrical or computer issues are.

    Han is more pilot than gearhead, but ESB does establish that he and Chewie do lots of their own work on the Falcon as we see Chewie working on it and Han giving him instructions. In ANH Han even boasts that he did many of the modifications himself. When they lose the hyperdrive, Han is the one trying to figure out what's wrong with it in the middle of a pitched battle. The fact that he doesn't fix it is probably more about him not having the necessary parts, time or access (power is on, ships in motion). It was a long shot but they were desperate.

    Saying all this, I didn't have a huge issue with Rey knowing something about the Falcon that Han didn't (there's even a line earlier that states she's aware of that modification, while Han was separated from the Falcon for years), but more to point out that Han is quite knowledgeable about space ships in general, and the Falcon in particular.
     
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  5. Darth Malkovich

    Darth Malkovich Rebel General

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    Her midichlorian count is off the charts. Fixed.
     
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  6. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

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    Incorrect sir (or ma'am). If you watch ESB again you'll see that C-3P0 doesn't get plugged into the ship until after they fail the jump the first time.

    Han Solo: Oh, yeah? Watch this.

    [he throws the hyperdrive lever, the engine sputters and dies]

    Leia: Watch what?

    Han Solo: I think we're in trouble.

    C-3PO: If I may say so, sir, I noticed earlier the hyperdrive motivator has been damaged. It's impossible to go to lightspeed!

    I do agree on the last part, she has more knowledge of the recent history of the falcon which probably explains her understanding of that specific issue better.
     
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  7. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    Unless Luke comes back as a Force Ghost and continue Rey's training, I don't see any cure of Rey's Mary Sue traits . . . at least in regard to most of her ability to use the Force. However, her idiotic actions regarding Kylo Ren and her inability to defeat Snoke may have erased some of her Mary Sue taint.
     
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  8. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    It turns out that Rey was actually one of Luke's students, who had training by Luke before. Furthermore, she was at Luke's academy for 5 years before Leia brought Ben Solo for training.
    Also, she is Palpatine's daughter.
    It's the only way Rey won't be a Mary Sue forever.
     
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  9. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

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    Palpatine was into all sorts of experiments in the canon comics and books, and one of his scientists Cylo even tried to give force abilities to non force sensitive individuals and transfer life into clone bodies.

    While Rey need not have a powerful lineage, her being the result of an imperial experiment is a way to explain her being so powerful.....she might possess the ability to absorb the skills of others, which could explain how a little girl managed to become Unkar's best scavenger at a very young age over older and more experienced scavengers, learn melee fighting, understand many languages, and even finish Han's sentences regarding issues with the Millennium Falcon and pick up force abilities from Kylo's head.

    Rather than being a Mary Sue, it would be interesting if Rey turned out, in a sense, to be a "monster" after she called Kylo one in TFA.
     
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  10. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Interesting theory! Others like @Choose Light and @Kylocity have already stated options and facts better than I could, but I really do enjoy this theory! I honestly don't think it's that unbelievable, really.

    Playing Devil's Advocate, it could, depending on how Luke trained Ben. I know in some cultures (mostly Japan in my experience), high school and college students sometimes have days or weeks where they work at a place in the same career they want to do in the future. For example, students who want to be teachers will understudy with an actual teacher in a different school for a couple of days; and college students will help teach classes at the level of education they're studying in. In the U.S. sometimes college students have "shadow days," where they reach out to a worker in the field they're interested in and observe.

    Who's to say Jedi training isn't the same? Actually, that makes a lot more sense, depending on where Ben's level of training is. Anakin was given Ahsoka as a Jedi Knight so that he could mature. Maybe Luke sent Ben to find someone to train, and he found Rey. But neither can remember (or maybe he's fully aware and she can't remember).

    Or maybe as an even simpler explanation, Luke sent Ben to study with the Church of the Force, explaining how Ben knew Lor San Tekka, and while there Ben met (via physically or through the Force) Rey.

    Why didn't Ben just rescue Rey? Maybe he couldn't without using force, and that's not the Jedi way. Maybe someone (i.e. Luke) stopped him, saying that the Force didn't want him to. Maybe that's what helped corrupt Ben.


    But the real answer is what others have already said, and I believe JJ confirmed that Rey and Kylo never met before TFA.


    EDIT:

    But to answer the original question, I think TLJ "fixed" a lot of "issues" about Rey that people who claimed she was a Mary Sue had. I think she's fine going forward.
     
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  11. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    Disagree with your edit, Falchion.
    In my opinion TLJ carved a MIchaelangelo statue of a Mary Sue, with Rey as the model.
     
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  12. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Now, that made me laugh.
     
  13. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    I have two pertinent questions. Not really looking to make a point, but I think they frame the issue nicely:

    1. What is the main conflict or challenge Rey has to face as of the end of TLJ? With Luke, he had to deal with this new information regarding who his Father was. That defined his character arc throughout RotJ. Anakin got married and had to face his attachment issues (and failed to do so spectacularly). What is it that Rey has to overcome? Is it still trying to figure out who she is and how she fits into everything?

    2. What kind of conflict or challenge could reasonably be introduced at this point? Or, how can existing challenges or conflicts be expanded upon?
     
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  14. DarthHutt

    DarthHutt Clone Commander

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    She didn't seem all that Mary Sue in TLJ.
    She did crack the ground and lift some rocks, but it didn't seem as egregious as TFA....plus she kept getting tossed around by Snoke.
    Mary Sue whiners will probably need to wear depends for EP-IX, as I expect we'll see some serious power from her.
     
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  15. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I'm not sure it's on the story to "cure" the accusations, since I find them ungrounded anyway.

    I think the only real option is for the accusers to educate themselves on the term, its meaning, and how it doesn't apply.
     
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  16. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    Rey used the force bond to steal ben solos abilities...causing her to literally be on equal footing
     
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  17. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    There is at least one Mary Sue tester online. I will update with Rey's score here later.

    http://www.gotoquiz.com/results/is_your_character_a_mary_sue_2

    Go to quiz says 47 percent. Ironically, if she is a Skywalker or related to a well known important chracter, she would be more of a Mary Sue.

    Prof Quiz here https://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/quizreport.php?title=is-your-protagonist-mary-sue&sid=161324674
    says 74/156 or 47.43 or 47 percent again. Ironically, again, related to important person, more Sue.

    https://www.quotev.com/quiz/8208964/Is-your-OC-a-MaryGary-Sue
    One of the Quiz on Quotev says she is a Mary Sue if she's secretly Reylo....

    So she's borderline Mary Sue, depends on if she is a Skywalker and end up with Ben Solo or not.
     
    #57 Darth_Mu, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  18. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i took this one. http://www.gotoquiz.com/is_your_character_a_mary_sue_2
    it's not very sophisticated, but it's the first one that pops up on Google.
    some of the questions were iffy and non-applicable, but i tried to be fair.
    maybe others should take this same test and we can see where our biases/perceptions lie.

    Screen Shot 2018-02-12 at 12.36.19 PM.png
     
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  19. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    I took the same quiz (Goto Quiz) My score was 47. Again, it's depending on if she's a Skywalker or Reylo.
     
  20. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i would guess anywhere between 25 and 50 would be a fair measure for a Star Wars character.
    she scores high on the "powerful" and "purposeful" end of things because she has the Force, but most of the rest of it she doesn't fit. eh.
     
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