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SPECULATION Way to Cure Rey's Mary Sue accusations?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by ReyErso5280, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. Exo

    Exo Rebel Commander

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    It was meant as a general you, so nothing was out of turn. :)
     
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  2. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    So Rey didn't learn how to use lightsaber technique and Force manipulation via osmosis by Kylo?
     
  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I don't know- if she did, could you cite the source? I'm also interested in your claim that she did so in "0.000001 seconds". How exciting! :p
     
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  4. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

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    There is a big difference between having good aim (natural skill) and something telekinetic like lifting boulders.

    Luke could shoot womp rats as a small kid, and Han had a great aim despite not being a force sensitive as far as we know.

    Telekinesis isn't a basic force move. Luke couldn't lift the x-wing in ESB despite training briefly with Yoda, and in the canon novel Heir to the Jedi, he struggled to lift a single noodle off a plate despite having a strong belief that he was meant to be a jedi. Anakin was lifting a pear after nearly 10 years of training in AOTC.

    I don't buy the "she believes so its possible". This completely undermines the efforts of jedi and other force users who existed before her who underwent actual training and struggled to master force abilities.

    You might not share the opinion, but that doesn't mean you can tell me what to think or say. This is a place of discussion when I last checked.
     
    #84 panki, Feb 14, 2018
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  5. Talon Karrde

    Talon Karrde Rebel Official

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    I didn't read every response in this thread, so apologies if this has been covered.
    One of the more unaddressed issues regarding Rey and her term is Rey's inexplicable altruism. Rey is a scavenger. Most of Rey's mentality does not reflect this. Rey has absolutely no one in her life on Jakku that inspires this. This, I think as much as her learning curve, led to the great speculations and accusations. Obviously, after 8, there is no answer. We are to take at face value that a character who has to scavenge for her next meal and is waist deep in knowledge of the criminal underworld is the living definition of an Adam Ant song.
    Ultimately there is no real way to undo this pox on the character. I tried, for two years. Even Rian Johnson tried.. and failed rather miserably. Rey finally meets that strong male character and she's subsequently tossed around like a ragdoll and booted in the head by her own lightsaber. Ultimately she's saved from death.. by a man. She's still called a Mary Sue because she beat Jake Skywalker in a stick fight.:confused:
    Johnson also tried to use Yoda to justify Rey's learning curve. "Failure is the greatest teacher" had more than one utility. Rey will screw up twice, and get it on the third try.
    I'm probably one of the few people that picked up on that. I haven't even seen that observation in the wagon circling articles about this movie.
    Ree Dolly, the J-law character Rey is based off, also possesses this altruism in the midst of crime to some extent. The key difference is that Ree gets her altruism from the southern code of honor the Dollys live by. "Dollys don't run." By making Rey 'Nobody' there really isn't anything there to justify it.. much like her accent. It's a construct. And ultimately.. yeah, bad storytelling.:(
     
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  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    JFC. He had never been off planet. Yet was able to do all that. Give me a break.

    She just spent time with Luke on Ach-To.
    She's more willing to just give into the force.
    Luke was always resistant to a degree.

    This is why the Mary Sue argument is dumb and the "training" argument is even more dumb and circular.
     
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  7. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

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    Luke had been off planet and traveled to different places around the galaxy by the time of Heir to the Jedi. Also Rey was on Jakku her whole life so its not like she had seen much of the galaxy either so your argument doesn't apply.

    So Rey spends time arguing with Luke, gets a couple of basic lessons and she can do anything because she believes? I don't but that.

    Luke was determined to become a jedi, spending the time between ANH and ESB desperately hunting for a teacher. If he was so resistant, he would not have been so determined and even been open to the ways of other force users (as he does in The Legends of Luke Skywallker and the Ashes of Jedha comic).

    I think all other arguments people make accusing Rey of being a Mary Sue are unfair as they are explained in other canon (melee fighting, flying, languages etc ) but I see no logic in her sudden use of telekinesis.

    Maybe you find the Mary Sue tag dumb and circular but I don't because I don't buy the "I believe so I can" argument. It might work in JM Barrie's Peter Pan but it is inconsistent with past canon.
     
    #87 panki, Feb 14, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
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  8. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Nice side step bud.
    Anakin and Luke had BOTH never been off planet. Pull off ridiculous feats with no formal training. Anakin was Maclunkey TWELVE.
    TWELVE. And doing things no human could ever do.
     
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  9. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Also, I love that because she picked up some rocks with the Force, "she can do anything."

    Good lord- If Rey's greatest accomplishment was the ability to tie her shoe, some people would still say she was too powerful.
     
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  10. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    They're rocks.
    ROCKS.

    We have gone from universally accepting Starkiller pulling a Maclunkey Destroyer out of the sky, The Emperor shooting force lightning (out of nowhere!) and all kinds of good blast to just being pissy about ROCKS.

    Remember when everyone freaked out when Kylo Ren froze a blaster bolt and they were clearly destroying the force?
     
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  11. BobPontes

    BobPontes Rebelscum

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    Good point.

    My comparison was merely with regards to lightsaber training / fighting.
    My point there was just that Rey defeating Kylo Ren in TFA and the Praetorians in TLJ is much more grounded in what we know about the characters than Luke defeating Vader in ROTJ is.

    To be clear: I don't think these comparisons are necessary nor that they make much sense. First because different characters will have different arcs of learning and growing, and second because a lot of these fights are really about the moment. So, when character X beats character Y, that doesn't mean they will always win that fight should it happen again.

    I wrote the Luke vs. Vader thing just to point out that the cries about Rey defeating Kylo being unrealistic are inconsistent with what we've seen in the OT. If Rey couldn't have beaten Kylo based on their "experience levels" then there's no way in hell Luke would have beaten Vader in the throne room. This is the entirety of the point I was making.

    Back to your point: the use of the force. I agree that Rey has demonstrated more use of the force than Luke did by the end of ESB. I'm personally ok with it as I attribute it to, again, different character arcs. Rey is clearly much more of a believer than Luke ever was. I'm satisfied with the explanation that, when Kylo reached out to Rey's mind in TFA he inadvertently awoke the Force in her. And from that point on she started believing in it in a way that Luke only really did by ROTJ.
     
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  12. Darth Simple Jack

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    Rey being a Mary Sue (which she is) isn't the main problem.

    The central issue lies in the fact that the lions share of Star Wars fans are guys.....and they're just not interested in Rey (I know I'm one of them, I don't give two f**ks about Rey). This is why her toys don't sell.

    The truth is that it's not enough to tweak her character when what's needed is something more radical: for her to go the way of the dodo and completely disappear from the GFFA. Forever.

    "Failed you have, Disney....go back to the drawing board, you must."
     
    #92 Darth Simple Jack, Feb 15, 2018
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  13. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I'm a guy. I care about Rey as much as I can a fake being. Another theory busted.

    You may be confusing with the fact these men who don't care about Rey aren't 10 any more and therefore don't build unhealthy emotional attachments to a fictional character like they used to. And then trying to set the bar at that mythical "Luke Skywalker when I was 10" level of attachment can never be achieved.
     
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  14. Darth Simple Jack

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    One opinion doesn't bust a theory. Which really this isn't a theory, it's a fact.

    The majority of Star Wars fans (which are male) can't relate to Rey. Fact. No boy looks at Rey and goes "I want to grow up and be like her one day."

    They're interested in Luke, Han, Obi-Wan, Vader....and even Kylo. Because they can connect with and relate to them.

    Disney needs to get back to catering to the fan-base and move away from this hair-brained strategy to try and make the GFFA just as popular with girls as boys (which has NOT worked out thusfar).

    Otherwise Star Wars moving forward is in a whole heap of trouble the likes of which you probably cannot comprehend.
     
    #94 Darth Simple Jack, Feb 15, 2018
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  15. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Ahh... so the problem isn't that she's a "Mary Sue", but that she's a "she"?

    Noted. Please, continue.
     
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  16. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    One guy randomly saying something online doesn't mean it has value.
    You are literally just saying women need to leave Star Wars.
    You are not worth my time.
     
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  17. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    It's too late now anyway with one film left to go. Something drastic will have to happen for her to not be accused of being a "Mary Sue". Either she goes to the dark side or the ultimate sacrifice for the Rebellion.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 15, 2018 ---
    He's name is Simple...I don't know how he justifies Leia and Padme in these movies.

    I've always wondered what would've happened if Rey was Ray what response Ray would have gotten over Rey. If Ray had the same abilities has Rey did.
     
    #97 Andrew Waples, Feb 15, 2018
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  18. Darth Simple Jack

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    You're conveniently taking what I said out of context.
    But yes, Star Wars needs a male protagonist again.
    Because again, most SW fans are guys.
    They didn't play with Barbie dolls when they were kids and they're not playing with Rey action figures today.

    Now, if there wasn't a problem, and I was truly off-base with my assessment based on evidence that would hold up in a court of law, then we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. The reality is Rey isn't popular, her toys don't sell. Even marked down to $1 retailers still can't move them.



    Hasbro is taking a bath on these toys. If they're a publicly traded company, it may be time to consider shorting them.
     
    #98 Darth Simple Jack, Feb 15, 2018
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  19. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Darth Simple Jack

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    Prove it.
     
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