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SPECULATION Way to Cure Rey's Mary Sue accusations?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by ReyErso5280, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Oh come on, if you're going to use some of your primary examples from the end of Episode III, at least allow Rey the same amount of movies.
     
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  2. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I think you’re talking about exposition, which isn’t the same as good writing. Darth Vader was, for most of the OT, the most simplistic baddy you could ever encounter and yet one of the best and most terrifying. In the information dense PT, I’m sorry, but Anakin/Darth Vader lost everything that made him so great in the OT. I understood him more, but, honestly, I didn’t need to. It comes to show. Sometimes exposition is the last thing you need to strike gold.

    But, of course, exposition is necessary for some characters and it comes in many forms. Rey was presented with a very elegant visual back story in TFA. Every shot of her home in Jakku offered crucial information about her background and her set of skills. JJ also decided to leave some mysteries for his successor to resolve, such as her force ability and parentage, both of which RJ has resolved, IMO, fairly satisfactorily. It is easy to forget that KK, JJ and RJ are Star Wars connoisseurs and extremely good at what they do. I don’t need to be explained to the last midichlorian why Rey is so powerful, or need her losing limbs in order to have a place among the Star Wars “royalty”. Let’s Rey have her own trajectory and show us her own personal challenges within the force.
     
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  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Overuse of exposition is the worst thing a movie can do. It's dreadful and slows the movie to a crawl.
     
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  4. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    but...don't we want to stop everything to explain Snoke and Rey's origins and the Force and why she's powerful and who the caretakers are and how Chewie caught and killed those porgs but then didn't even eat them? what a waste! doesn't he know there are children starving on Arkanis?

    in all seriousness, i do think the trend in certain storytelling has absolutely gone full-exposition in some mediums.
    i personally find this anathema, but we may be raising a generation of people who just expect all these explanations, unfortunately.
    a poster in another thread literally admitted to wanting to be spoon fed rather than engage their imaginations.

    hopefully there continue to be authors and filmmakers out there who resist the desire to give in to this. : o p
     
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  5. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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    Anakin had credibility to do the things he did. Even as the Chosen One he was full of failure. Rey is full of.... perfectness?

    She draws little to no emotional investment. You were invested in Luke succeeding after ESB, losing his hand and the battle. You were invested in Anakin's redemption following his tragedies.

    Rey on the other hand is of little investment value. While an orphan, there hasn't been much to make me say "Dang if anyone deserves a victory it's her". Rather, it is the opposite.

    I generally like the Sequel trilogy, I just hate how they devalued Rey by not allowing for personal growth from adversity.

    This Sequel trilogy is polar opposite from the PT and OT. What have we seen? Struggles of the villan. Kylo Ren struggling to fulfill his grandfathers legacy. Kylo struggling with the light. Kylo struggling to kill his father and mother. Kylo struggling against Rey in combat. Kylo struggling with the chain of command and Hux. It's been Kylo with struggle after struggle. It's like we are following the villan in his struggle and rooting for him to overcome, to get more powerful in the dark side. (Which makes zero sense, he should have little to no struggle, instead becoming a true force for Rey to overcome)

    Rey has struggled minimally. She has incredible power but no credibility behind it.

    It's like they forgot we get emotionally invested when we discover backstories to the heroine, or watch their struggles, or watch them grow emotionally.

    This Sequel trilogy will forever leave fans scratching their heads, wondering what we are to gleam from it. We have little to justify it's existence.
     
  6. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I disagree. I am emotionally invested in Rey. I understand her personal struggle, her need of belonging somewhere, of looking for a parent figure, of understanding and channeling a power that confuses her, of coming to terms with the fact that her soulmate Finn is/may be moving on, of dealing with her unhealthy attachment to Kylo. These are all legitimate struggles like Kylo's. She is a young person with young person's problems, like Kylo.

    There are many kinds of battles, and one that Rey has not been able to win yet is the internal one that will give her the confidence to believe in her own strength. This is very relatable. What can a girl from Jakku ("Nowhere") really do for the galaxy? This feeling of hers is equivalent to that many overqualified young woman have, have had and will undoubtedly still have for a while longer: that of being an impostor in a world of men.
     
    #146 Kylocity, Feb 24, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  7. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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    I am talking a struggle. Like finding out your father is the second most evil man in the galaxy and having to decide to fight him again and whether to kill/save, or if even thats possible.

    Or struggling to save your wife when the only way out and only option given unto you is to turn to the dark side and commit unspeakable acts of cruelty.
     
  8. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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    In other words, it is missing the epic Skywalker struggle en style of the OT and PT.

    Without it there is no connection from 1-6 to 7-9.

    On a lighter note watch this:

     
    #148 YubNubBub, Feb 24, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  9. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Those are indeed struggles and I understand what you like about them. They are more of a Greek tragedy, shakespearian kind. I can understand now why you think that only Kylo reaches that level of dramatic conflict.

    So far Rey's struggles have not been of the standard that you have set, and that's fair enough. But that does not necessarily make Rey's conflict less interesting and engaging or her trajectory as a character less well written, which is what you said before. Rey's struggles are relatable and that is what makes her a a well realized character for me. Luke had also an engaging trajectory but sorry, I cannot agree with you about Anakin: The prequel for me was just a cheap exercise to make Darth Vader "human" using the most facile, tearjerking kind of storytelling: "Let's give little Anakin the most contrived and sentimental conflict one can fathom so that his turning to evil is understood". Very uninspired.
     
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  10. Boss Vos

    Boss Vos Rebel Official

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    There's no way to cure it since TLJ didn't even try to fix it. Of course, there were many things that TLJ didn't fix from TFA, but this one in particular is kind of a dead end now.

    While many of Rey's incredible feats in TFA could've been explained (since she acted like she didn't know what was happening), TLJ destroyed this opportunity by making Rey seem like a full-fledged Jedi who knew exactly what she was doing. TFA had its own problems, but it was a great set-up that left many windows open for further interpretation. TLJ is an abomination that says "screw TFA and screw Star Wars, I'm going to f*** up this universe and make everyone call it fresh even though it doesnt change anything".
     
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  11. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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    I am an avid defender of the Prequels. (lightsaber) The Prequels were brilliant.

    (duel)

    I dare say when I come across people who bash the Prequels they generally lack the ability to comprehend the genius behind it. While it may seem to have "stale" acting, the execution gives the Prequels a brilliance rarely experienced.

    So many well thought out scenes of brilliance come to mind, challenging your perception of the moment and what is going on. On surface scan, these details are easily missed.
     
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  12. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Perhaps you’re right. Many people like these films and it is very possible that I can only see the bad things about them... I grew up with the OT and love them dearly in spite of their imperfections. I was never that understanding with the prequels, I admit. I mean, there is no doubt that Lucas knows his craft, that he is an incredible filmmaker and that the PT has incredible quality at a visual level, but is just so heavy handed and cheesy at times... No humour either.

    And although this is definitely off topic, there is something in me that rejects the prequels because, when Lucas decided to make them, he also decided to “improve” all the films in the OT... I mean, I don’t mind the man wanting to do with his films what he wanted, but I could never understand why he refused and still refuses to allow the first cinematic version of Star Wars later called A New Hope see the light of day. Surely that film was a phenomenon and most certainly a historical document. What right has he got to stop people from seeing it the way it used to be?
     
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  13. Sparafucile

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    How does Rey lose the Mary Sue stamp?

    She goes dark. Fails utterly and needs to be redeemed or destroyed. A significant failure (with repercussions) in TLJ could have avoided this, but at this point, this is what we're left with. Her going dark explains her quick grasp of the Force (established canon over 6 movies and multiple media) and her "playing" good explains her saint-like altruism. It's not going to happen though (imagine all the little girls who love her being dashed by seeing their hero fall so hard).

    Instead they'll focus on the fans who accept the explanations given so far. Light meets dark, I think therefor I am (I believe therefor I can), despite laughing in the face of "quick and easy path leads to the dark side". It's okay, it's just not a SW for everyone. But she'll also never lose the Mary Sue, pet character, wish fulfillment stamp and fans who like the ST will just have to accept that.
     
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  14. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    I'm not sure who's pet character she is, or who's wishes she's fulfilling, but you're entitled to your opinion.

    That said, I think we might see darker consequences to your actions sooner than you think. Possibly, by inspiring Kylo Ren to usurp Snoke's place as Supreme Leader, she's unleashed a newer meaner first order. Ren is known for his serious anger management issues, and after the taunt from Luke leading to the escape of the Resistance Leadership, he may feel he has something to prove, unleashing more blood and horror than Snoke would have. It certainly fits his character. Rey may felal that's her fault.
     
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  15. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    How to cure it, by finally aknowledging that REY CANNOT BE A MARY SUE for obvious reasons:

    1. Rey needs a male character (Kylo and Luke) to "show me my place in all this"
    2. Rey's knowledge about the Force is ridiculed on several occassions by male characters (Luke, three times)
    3. Rey needs knowledge digressed by a male authority to save the resistance (rock moving skills)
    4. Rey foolishly neglects to heed the warnings of a male character with destructive consequences (Rey goes after Ben, against the advice of Luke)
    5. Rey's powers are shown to be insignificant in comparison to another male character (Snoke), she's depicted as trapped and enthralled and the powerful male character literally reads her mind. She has lost all agency.
    6. Rey needs a male protector to save her from the overwhelming power of another male character (Kylo kills Snoke, saves Rey)
    7. Rey isn't immediately liked by all the male characters in the narrative (most prominently Luke, and in extension Snoke who is prepared to cast her aside)
    8. Rey is depicted as aknowledging that something on which she had authoritative skill and knowledge in the previous film is done better by a male character in the next one(Rey does not fly the Falcon (Chewie), but takes quite literally the secondary gunner's position)
    9. Rey cries on mutliple times and shows inherent emotional weakness. She is confused and is even forced by a male other to aknowledge a 'truth' about herself ("you know who your parents are, say it")
    10. Rey aknowledges sexual tension in a scene with a male character (Kylo's shirtless scene: "[looks away] don't you have a gown or something")

    Don't cry
     
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  16. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    1) Yet she knows her place better than any character ever in a SW universe. Anakin and Luke had harder times with this.
    2) Yet she's mastered most of it without knowing what it is. Far from a weakness.
    3) So she needs some training to do something better than any one has done before... puh lease. It could also be argued that Luke is neutered in this series, he has no offspring and has never married (as far as we know within this movie... and this movie kind of confirms it) and he dies that way. He's pretty much as gender neutral as you can get. I suppose she could have waited for a female Jedi master, and so that light can meet dark the Force probably could have provided that for her....
    4) Rey goes after Ben, aiding in the destruction of Snoke (the big bad) and walks away with barely a scratch. I'd say this pretty much mirrors Luke leaving Yoda's training early... oh, except Luke loses a hand and nearly dies (among other things).
    5) Again, aiding in that same male characters demise and gets validation in her trusting Ben (thus her decision to leave training early).
    6) Kylo could never have killed Snoke without Rey, so team effort there, even if she was unaware of Kylo's plan. She was powerful enough to require all of Snokes attention leaving him open to Kylo's betrayal. Pretty impressive for someone who's only known how to wield the force for 2 weeks.
    7) She is the light that meets dark, so obviously Snoke wants to kill her. She grows on Luke visibly within a day or two? Luke is in the lowest place emotionally of his life, that she can get through to him so quickly is a feat in and of itself.
    8) Yet she coaches him constantly, making fans wonder that maybe she would do a better job. And honestly, omg... she admits that with a day or so's practice (not even training, self teaching) she isn't as good as Chewie (who's flown the Falcon for decades more). Again. please....
    9) She already knew, so she didn't need the male. If it was a reveal, maybe I'd give you that one, but she already knew. Nothing was revealed to her. After what she's been through in 3 weeks time (people who've died and been wounded around her), I'd be curled up in a ball sobbing, a few tears isn't such a big deal. Very human reaction, I'd say.
    10) This one depends on how it's interpreted. Many fans didn't feel the sexual tension, and felt she dismissed him pretty casually (rolling of the eyes). Others felt it opened the door for Reylo. I'm of the latter opinion, but I could give you 1/2 marks depending on where JJ takes it in 9. So at worse this one is TBD.

    No tears here, hope you're fine where you are. It's a disagreement. As vehemently as you disagree with me (and others of like mind), I'm much less emotionally attached to Rey or the ST as you are. So tears are not even a possibility. I've gone through my paces to try and understand and come to peace with Rey and the ST and I quite simply can't. If you like her, that's fine. What does it matter if she's a Mary Sue or whatever? I liked Superman in the 70s movies and he's the Mary Sue of all Mary Sue's. I looked up a variety of Mary Sues, and all have a pretty loyal following who will vouch that they're not. It's all good, believe what you want, and the rest of us will believe what we believe.

    PS: One caveat. It's been suggested that the damage Rey has received is more emotional rather than physical. If this is true, it hasn't translated well to film. Which isn't surprising because it's a very difficult thing to show (lawyers trying to sue on emotional abuse usually let that one drop and settle on things that are easier to prove for just that reason), especially within a movie. However if this is true (and so far it's more fan theory than something RJ has addressed) than it's impossible to gauge emotional damage as it's something very personal. If it is the case, they should have probably focused on it more (her skills being hampered by her emotional turmoil) but again, it's not confirmed, to my knowledge one way or the other. However it could come up in EPIX to help prove your argument. However, it would have to be something pretty substantial (compared to a loss of a limb) and I don't see that happening. But lets wait and see.
     
    #156 Sparafucile, Feb 26, 2018
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  17. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    1. The comparison is irrelevant, I'm showing how Rey cannot be a Mary Sue by checking the commonly used criteria. Luke wanted to be a Jedi like his father before him directly after his uncle and aunt got torched. Anakin was immediately revealed as the chosen one. Rey literally says "I'm scared" and "I need someone to show me my place in all this". Rey has the typical confusion about self of a teenager or adolescant. Who am I? What is my role in the world? Who are my parents? Am I like my parents? Mary Sue's never do that. For Mary Sue's those questions are irrelevant whereas they are highly relevant for Rey.
    2. Rey has affinity to the force, but needs other characters to explain her what the force is (Maz, Luke, Kylo). Mary Sue's never need digressed knowledge about Self or techne.
    3. Again the comparison with anyone else doesn't matter. Rey's rockmoving skills are a pay-off of knowledge she had acquired from a male character: Luke (the Force is more than "moving rocks") Mary Sue's never learn anything from a man, or need a man to achieve something.
    4. Rey's belief was that she could turn Ben to the light. Ben didn't, as Luke had warned her.
    5. She does not aid in the demise of Snoke. She has no active agency in Kylo's killing of Snoke, only passive. The ultimate choice and agency-centre is with Kylo. He decides whether Rey lives or not. It is not Rey deciding whether Kylo will turn or whether Kylo should live or die. That's important. A Mary Sue is never presented in a situation where she is enthralled and dependent on male agency and choice. Rey provided information of choice, but did not influence. That is crucial. Which also relates to point 6-->
    6. What matters is that she is saved by a male character. She needed to be saved once, by Chewie, Han and Finn, and she needed to be saved again by Kylo.
    7. The point is that she isn't liked immediately by a male character. Luke even asks her to leave the island after he discovers her intimate talkie-talks with Kylo. They part badly, the met badly. Which is different in relation to Finn.
    8. What fans think doesn't make a trope. If Rey would have been better at flying the falcon, the writer would have put her in the cockpit. He didn't. Rey is dependent on Chewie's flying.
    9. Mary Sue's don't show emotional weakness.
    10. It is aknowledged by the story group. Kiri Hart said so in the Star Wars show and that it was a continuation of the sexual tension in the torture scene. The torture scene's sexuality was an unintentional reading of viewers. The sexual tension in the shirtless Kylo scene and the touching hands sequence was intentional.

    Besides is it really necessary to stamp someone's post with an unoriginal just because you do not agree. Please don't, let's stay civil :)
     
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  18. Sparafucile

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    Yet I get 2 unoriginals for simply answering the question asked by the op. Disagree if you must, but I can't even answer the op? This place sucks sometimes.

    As for her being a Mary Sue and your arguments... they're interesting. I can agree she's not a typical Mary Sue. There is definitely an effort by RJ and Disney brass to remove that from her, but I feel she still meets the minimum requirements. She's not full blown like others, but there's enough there to warrant the label imo. That's probably as close as you're going to get. She's OP and near flawless, more so than any previous SW character. Again, my opinion, you are free to disagree.
     
  19. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I think you're applying an arbitrary value to the Jedi training, though. Sure, we know a Jedi has to train to learn the Jedi way, but exactly how long do they have to train to lift a rock?

    Maybe you could see it like driving school. Ideally, one wouldn't head straight for the highway when learning to drive, and a lot of people would meet disastrous results when doing so, while some might not even be able to start the car. But failure is hardly guaranteed, either.
     
  20. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I like that analogy
    Maybe they backed into their parents driveway enough or spent enough time driving things that don't require a license that they can....there are ways to learn without "proper training"
     
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