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SPECULATION Way to Cure Rey's Mary Sue accusations?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by ReyErso5280, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Sorry but Rey’s emotional challenges are not fan fiction, they are a reality. If you listen to RJ in interviews he states he tried to make every character endure the most difficult situation they could encounter, Rey in particular. Another thing is that you don’t think RJ did this in a satisfactory manner and therefore did not engage with it. Her Jedi skills are in fact what they ought to be according to what RJ and ,to some extent,JJ have established. This explanation may not be satisfactory to many who would have liked Rey to be more of a Jedi student. But this trilogy so far doesn’t seem to have any interest in exploring the intricacies of force powers.
     
    #161 Kylocity, Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
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  2. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I think it's safe to assume every character, good or bad, has some emotional challenged in the course of SW movies. I don't see Rey's as being particular more (actually, I see them as being somewhat less) than that of Lukes at the end of ESB or Anakin's by the end of AotC. Luke finding out his father is DV, getting handily beat, failing his Jedi training with Yoda, nearly dying and losing his best friend (not to mention losing a hand).

    Anakin losing his mom, failing to save her, killing a village worth of people (the women and children too lol... had to), dealing with being the "chosen one" (and the pressures that come along with that over 10+ years of expectations) losing his first teacher and father figure (qui-gon), loving someone when told it's wrong and it's been a while, but I'm thinking it was in this one that he started having dreams of Padme dying, but I could be wrong on that last point.

    Rey in comparison has lost a father figure she'd known for all of what, 2 days? A week max? Discovered she has an amazing ability to use the force. Yes, was mind raped (twice), but also defeated a evil force wielder who mind raped her and had the satisfaction of seeing the other one die. Was tempted by the DS without repercussion. Had her friend severely hurt by afore mentioned evil force wielder. Met her hero and was disappointed that he's an old grouch. Oh, had to admit that her parents are normal nobody's (or somewhat less than).

    Rey's just doesn't seem to compare. That's not to say I wouldn't be in the fetal position sobbing, but from where I'm standing she's got it in comparison to Luke and Anakin. But I digress, when it comes to emotional trauma, it's hard to put numbers on it.
     
    #162 Sparafucile, Feb 26, 2018
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  3. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I know what you’re saying and yet I’m just as invested in Rey’s journey as I was in Luke’s. (I don’t count Anakin because although he encountered challenge after challenge I just did not relate to his story at any level). Let’s just say that some stories and character developments resonate with some people and not with others. As simple as.

    Very few moments in cinema can be compared to the absolute master stroke that was Vader’s “I’m you father”. But I must admit that the moment Kylo killed Snoke was truly powerful. The growth of characters is determined after moments like this. Let’s just wait and see how the events of episode 8 will affect Rey in episode 9. Maybe RJ should have gone full Reylo to properly spell out Rey’s disappointment in Kylo at every level. If handled well something on those lines would have really worked.
     
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  4. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I think it's different types of tragedies. Luke has a very dark time in Empire, and I don't think most Star Wars fans would try to diminish that.

    With TLJ, there's a pretty pervasive bleakness. The Resistance is all but snuffed out. Kylo and Rey seem distant again. Luke is gone, and Rey really has no other mentor to look to. Even before Luke's death, he spent the majority of the film trying to avoid Rey and disillusion her from her hero. I don't know if we can necessarily say that is worse than finding out that your father is Space Hitler, but rather they're two very different circumstances. For Luke, there's the existential fear of being destined for evil. For Rey, it's the existential fear of being destined for nothing, and being truly alone.
     
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  5. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    I've stated this before... I had no problem really with TFA and her being a Mary Sue. Simply embrace it. I don't really view it as a bad thing. Its simply a character standard in Hollywood Movies for the protagonist to be overpowered, as it provides wish-fulfillment for the user that keeps them coming back.

    Don't like it? Don't watch Big Hollywood Movies. I mean.. jesus.. NEO went from an obscure computer programmer to having full control of the entire bloody Matrix in the span of a single movie. This type of thing is why we watch Hollywood Movies.

    And we saw how well, or lack thereof, neutering the character worked in The Lost Jedi. Probably the biggest criminal aspect to the ST at this point is the unwillingness to pick a path and stay on it. Whiplash shouldn't be a thing watching these movies. And I fully expect 9 to go in a completely new direction that basically takes RoTJ and files off the serial numbers.
     
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  6. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    For many of us she doesn't have to be neutered. She could be the James Bond of the Jedi and we'd be fine, but she would be introduced to us with powers already, with the implication that she's been using them and honing them for some time. What we have is Rey first discovering her latent abilities and making huge leaps without any explanation within a very tight window time wise.

    In a different sci-fi where there is no history and it's being built from scratch, fine, but there is history and lore and canon and precedent in SW and that's why it doesn't work for many of us. I'm sure if she was a Bond you'd still get some accusations of Mary Sue, but you'd also lose a lot of those too.
     
  7. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Actually, the real point is that a "Mary Sue" doesn't exist, both sides in the argument always try to force a square peg in a round hole simply because there are no agreable or verifiable criteria. No one uses the term "Mary Sue" in media-and literary criticism or in academia. And when it is used, it is discussed in the context of sexism and social political discourse. Not everyone using the term has a sexist, reactionary or antifeminist of course, but the term Mary Sue is most often used in the context of a sexist critique. That is definitely not the case with the rather obscure Gary Stue, which until very recently, only a very few people used.
     
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  8. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Mainly because at this point professional writers are quite aware of what a Mary Sue is and tend to avoid it. But the term itself comes directly from literary criticism of decades past. It is very much a thing.

    Mary Sue's are more common with amateur writers and 'fan fiction' where the author is more concerned about injecting themselves into the story while creating unrealistic scenarios. This is why it tends to have the stigma, as its typically the pitfall of a rookie or bad writer.

    Honestly.. not much argument there. I fully agree that if you're going to bang on Rey as a Mary Sue, you should spread the hate and go after Neo, Luke, and all the others. I simply take the opposite approach and say simply be accepting of the paradigm and character trope. In movies, its not really a bad thing to entertain people with and tends to sell tickets. Trying to hold Hollywood Movies to literary standards is just lol.

    See... I'm totally cool with huge leaps, and don't really think it works well any other way. You want the viewer to put themselves in her position, and its much harder to do if she simply starts out of the gate strong.

    Its unrealistic, its silly, but its the trope. And this is Hollywood, so whatever! LOL. People get so embarrassed at what they were accepting of as kids, that they think the trope should change to fit them at their new age. If you want higher quality films made by sensitive arteests, watch those. They're still made.
     
    #168 ScumAndVillainy, Feb 27, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
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  9. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

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    I hope they just make her something like a wound in the force, as it could neatly explain all those things about her that people feel make her a Mary Sue.

    She simply picks up skills from the people she interacts with....this could even explain her being liked by everyone she meets and force users being especially drawn to her (Kylo taking her back to the Finalizer the first time they met, Leia hugging her when she first sees her, grumpy Luke considering returning with her to the resistance, etc)
     
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  10. The Next Skywalker

    The Next Skywalker Rebel General

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    Well, Rey is exceptionally strong with the force. That's a given and I can accept that.
    But maybe being strong with the force is how all the "Mary Sue"s came into existence in the first place?
     
  11. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    no from Comic Book fan criticism. It does not exist in literary criticism. :) It is used in Gender Studies, but only as part of social discourse analysis. "Which people use the term Mary Sue and why? What does that say about people's perception of the female and female power?": is the question usually asked. Ouside gender studies, the term Mary Sue is not used in academia, and most certainly not in the Media Studies and Literature departments.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 28, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 28, 2018 ---
    I mean that when the term 'Mary Sue' is used in academic literature it is always in pieces about sexist discourse. It is not used as an evaluative criterium, but is only analysed as as a term used by a certain group of people: so it's discursive context. I'm not saying people using the term are defacto sexist.
     
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  12. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Writers talking about writing use the term Mary Sue to describe just this:

    It is one of the most common flaws of the new writer such as not having narration with a consistent point of view or using cliches. It is the very transparent author's wish fulfillment what is usually most annoying about these characters. I personally don't see Rey in this category at all.

    I can see, however, how this term can be used with a sexist bias. It is also terribly subjective and un-scientific. No wonder it's not used in literary criticism.
     
    #172 Kylocity, Feb 28, 2018
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  13. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

    The complete history of the term, where it was coined, along with the literary criticism basis.

    I laughed.. hard. Gender Studies HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA. No really. That is the funniest thing I've read all day.

    You're either very young or incredibly naïve. Excluding the bs... anybody who has even a tangential relationship with writing knows exactly what a Mary Sue is when it comes to writing. Its the first thing you learn how to avoid. How to stop from taking your dreams of injecting yourself into the narrative in unbelieveable ways. This is male or female.

    Everyone. Because it IS a thing. People didn't just invent it to be sexist lolz.

    On the writer side? Not a thing.

    Academia!? Lol. Who cares about academia? Sounds like a deadly disease to me. Have you caught academia yet?

    Lol.. you're funny. And saying it doesn't make it so. I suggest you get outside whatever liberal college polluted your mind and actually understand what terms mean, their actual history, and that they weren't created as some sort of sexism of the patriarchy :eek:.
     
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  14. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    That quickly escalated... Not my business, but I think the poster simply suggested that the term Mary Sue is somewhat loaded with sexist bias and therefore not appropriate in modern literary criticism. You made your point fairly successfully before, I don't understand the need to dis someone's education or bring the word "patriarchy" into the equation.
     
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  15. Finn_McCool

    Finn_McCool Jedi Commander

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    I think TLJ humanized Rey a bit. It made her more vunerable. Yes she still has unexplainable powers, but she can't control it.
     
  16. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    I think it's too late to deal with Rey's Mary Sue factor. It's too late. Especially since Abrams will be taking control of her character again.
     
  17. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    The poster suggested that the term Mary Sue is one that was made up for sexist reasons and was explicit in saying the use of the term is only a subject of 'Gender Studies' as a sexist term. Not true and I pointed out how it wasn't.

    For a really good view of the subject and to see it in its purest form, i'd suggest watching USS Callister from Black Mirror's most recent season. Absolutely great episode.
     
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  18. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Yes, I saw that episode lol. It's a bit of a parody of Star Trek, and kind of creepy. Very good.

    In the link about Mary Sue you shared this is quite interesting:

    writers such as Tasha Robinson of The Verge have defended the idea of Rey being a Mary Sue, stating that "for women who've felt underrepresented through decades where most of the ladies onscreen were victims, tokens, rewards, or shrews, it's natural to feel a sugar rush of fulfillment over characters like Katniss Everdeen and Imperator Furiosa".[29]

    This lady, Tasha Robinson has a point that perfectly ties in with @Ammianus Marcellinus understanding of the concept of Mary Sue and how unhelpful it can be when talking about fictional characters and their impact in society.
     
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  19. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Right.. and the dude invented this device and the first thing he does is create a narrative where everything goes his way with little effort, as ego wish-fulfillment as his life is filled with people rolling all over him. That's the exact type of thing people talk about when it comes to a Mary Sue. The first inclination is to go with narratives you dream, and most of those usually aren't believeable. The dude doesn't want a good story, he wants to be adored and followed without question and builds his narrative around that. That is as close to a description of a pure Mary Sue-type character as you can get. Because it isn't about the show, its about the writer.

    Which has nothing at all to do with AM. In fact, its my original point. That we should be accepting of such characters in Hollywood films. Particularly if we've spent decades trumpeting the male versions.

    AM's point was that this whole Mary Sue thing doesn't exist *at all* and is a sexist fabrication.
     
    #179 ScumAndVillainy, Feb 28, 2018
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  20. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Sorry, lost the message I was writing. No idea how to delete this :-(
     
    #180 Kylocity, Mar 1, 2018
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