Were "fan expectations" the problem?

Going into it further. Defeating the Empire created a chaotic galaxy, and the galaxy had a hard time adjusting to the change. Some started missing the days when the Empire was in charge, because they felt things ran more smoothly. You have the Acolytes who are Vader worshippers. You have Kylo Ren as well as others that believe he should rule the galaxy due to his Vader bloodline. Then you take into account the reason he killed his father. He wasn't going to fail where Vader did. He believes this is his birthright.

 

For me Kylo’s disatisfaction is more personal. He feels targeted. The new republic (represented by his parents and uncle) failed him. As he grew up he must have felt that his force power made him a “worry” rather than the “pride and joy” of his parents. Also being cupped up afterwards with his Jedi uncle, in a monastic setting, away from family and politics, from the front line, must have aggravated this feelings of rejection. And we are also told that Snoke took advantage of this mindset of his... and poisoned him with ideas about him becoming a new Vader: someone that cannot be pushed out of the way and tamed, but rather feared and respected... Ruling the galaxy for Kylo is at the core a way for him to “show’em” how wrong they all were for pushing him aside.

 

Time can be an amazing factor when formulating an opinion on a film. When I was a kid and watched Empire for the first time, I wasn't sure I liked it. It was just so vastly different in look and tone from Hope, that it jarred me. Many years later, Empire is my absolute favorite film in the Saga, as I now appreciate the character building and Story telling of that film that setup an great finally to that Trilogy. My initial reaction to TLJ was very similar. I knew Rian would possibly give us something fresh, and take the trilogy in a new direction, but I wasn't expecting such 'unexpectingness' Lol. But once I digested the movie, I loved it. It's my 3rd favorite in the Saga after Empire and Jedi.

When the Prequels launched, I really enjoyed them. I saw a couple of them in the theaters more then once, and re-watched the DVD's countless times. It had been so long since anything Star Wars, that I simply ate it up. But deep down, I knew they weren't what I expected. The opening crawl to TPM was just not right, with it's talk of Trade Route taxes and all. And it just didn't quite 'feel' like Star Wars. As time went on, I become less found of the PT as well made films. Sure there are story elements and scenes that are iconic, but over all they were sloppy written and poorly acted films, and found it harder to overlook those short comings. I don't hate the PT, I just warn people before watching them, that they are 'not as good'.

So far I love the ST. TFA was a fun ride and set up endless directions the next 2 films could go. Those endless directions of mystery boxes is what made TLJ so fun to watch, and Rian was masterful at misdirection, while at the same time foreshadowing everything that would happen.

Bottom line is that expectation along with ANTICIPATION can greatly effect your movie watching experience. The anticipation of the PT overcame my expectations and allowed me to just watch and have fun. It was many years later that my expectations of those films finally surfaced and I become more critical. Perhaps in ten years or so my expectations of the ST will overcome my excited anticipations of the films, and I will view them differently from a more critical standpoint. Only time will tell, but for now I plan to enjoy them for what they are.... just movies meant for entertainment. Relax and enjoy them folks, for we could be living in a world where Star Wars is done. Instead we are in it's golden age.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 9, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 9, 2019 ---

Agreed. TFA had great overall reviews, and people flocked to the Theatre partly because of that. Plus it had the aura of a dead franchise being brought back to life by Disney and JJ Abrams. The hype was insane. TFA was a once in a life time event of anticipation and excitement. TLJ was just never going to live up to that.... It just couldn't. But it still made a boat load of money, and it's Home Release sales were number one that year if I remember correctly.

 

I think the oooooooold EU - I'm talking all the way back to the Heir to the Empire trilogy - touched on some of these points quite well. Just because the Empire was overthrown doesn't mean that everybody is just lining up and perfectly happy to join the New Republic. I think that would have been a really cool basis for the ST. Instead, I think the ST has poor storytelling by not even remotely explaining to us how we got from the end of E6 to E7-E8. It has been more soft-reboot than logical-continuation.

 

It just had a headstart because the movie came out so early in the year. Also, people were only looking at blu-ray figures instead of all physical media sales.

https://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/packaged-media-sales/2019 (calendar year)
https://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/packaged-media-sales/2018 (calendar year)
https://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/packaged-media-sales/2017 (calendar year)
https://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/packaged-media-sales/2016 (calendar year)

TLJ (2018: 4,056,507) was about 49.4% drop from TFA's estimated unit sales (2015: 7,434,520 + 2016: 587,780)

Just like what performs in theaters, home video sales are a brand popularity contest.

 

I admit that Kylo never had it tough in the sense Rey and Finn had. After all he’s a privileged young man in the galaxy. He has the name, the connections, the access to the weapons. He represents power. Rey and Finn represent the dispossed of the galaxy, who in spite of all odds are good and idealistic (Finn discovered this about himself in TLJ).

It is not hard to understand, however, why RJ wrote Kylo so well. After all kylo, like him or not, was the most complex and interesting character in TFA. His wounds are psychological and subtle, but still relevant. Han brushing his face before his death conditioned us to wish to know this character further. I’d even say Kylo’s part in TLJ made so much sense I would bet anything it practically wrote itself...

There is no doubt that Rey and Finn are the better people in this story, but they aren’t necessarily ( at least not yet) the ones who make this story most interesting... Kylo is, even though you want to slap his face for most of his time he’s on screen. This is just the way drama works. Luke was bland and boring in ANH, where Han stole all the attention with his relatability and his change of heart at the end. The possibility of Kylo turning good is just too juicy dramatically to overlook.

 

Mmmmm, ok I can agree that it's not hard to understand why RJ wrote Kylo so well, but it is tremendously difficult to understand why he does so poorly on Rey and Finn. I would not concede at all that Kylo was more complex or interesting than either one; especially not Finn. But that's my view.

 

I don't think the SW movies ever succeed (for me) when they try to go for this dramatic character arc (Anakin in the PT and Kylo Ren in the ST). I respect the movies for trying to be bold and trying to really flesh out a character, but the style of movies doesn't mix well. I think SW works best when it's not trying too hard to tell its story, and just being what it is. The PT and TLJ are probably the most ambitious SW movies in terms of storytelling, yet they fall flat for me for that same reason simply because they take themselves way too seriously.

That is why I prefer the OT and the standalones cause they sort of are what they are and aren't trying to change the world (even though the OT changed the world, it just wasn't going for that when Lucas was writing it). The OT is still a basic good vs evil story, R1 is a War movie, and Solo is a heist movie, as people forget the template that Lucas was using for these movies: The Flash Gordon Serials. The PT and TLJ are trying to be more like the Godfather or Platoon, where delving into those characters and driving the drama are the most important things and they HAVE to be executed well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you don't buy Anakin's arc in the PT, or Kylo Ren & Luke's arc in TLJ, the movies fall like a house of cards. Some fans buy those characters arcs and love the PT and TLJ, and than there are others like me that don't buy their motives and we just can't connect with the movie. None of us are wrong, because it's all objective. But that is why I feel SW isn't taking itself too seriously, instead of trying to be this character study drama. Some people feel differently, but that is why the PT and TLJ are much more divisive than the OT, TFA, R1 and Solo.

 

In TFA everything Rey and Finn did was for each other. In TLJ with no time jump. Everything they do was for the Resistance, and nothing for each other. Finn was doing what Rose wanted, and Rey was doing what Leia wanted. Han, Leia, and Luke never put anyone else above their friendship, but Rey and Finn put the Resistance above themselves. They even risked their lives for the Resistance in the very next film. Even though they barely know them. That's hard to believe.

 

Rey wanted to get BB8 to the Resistance and Finn wanted to get away from the war. Finn even left Rey after they "fulfilled" their mission. Yes, he came back to save her because they developed a friendship. But saying everything they did was for each other is an overstatement. But I agree with TLJ, most of the stuff they did was for the Resistance which they both are part of.

 

I don’t agree about Rey being poorly written in TLJ. We could see how her personality and her baggage created conflict and that was for me satisfying. I do admit that Finn was a bit underwritten. His ark was clear but, yes, the execution of it was a bit rushed and unengaging.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 11, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 11, 2019 ---

I agree with you about the PT. Those films did feel somewhat bloated to me and did take themselves far too seriously, but I disagree about Kylo’s characterisation in TLJ as comparable to the passionless PT. Anakin’s character wasn’t well written. The melodrama made him too anodine, something which IMO is not happening in the ST. There is nothing fake or boring about Kylo’s ark. His character is pure dramatic genius and for me that’s SW through and through, like Vader confronting and killing obi wan in ANH or the “I am your father” moment in ESB.

 

While I'm a huge fan of Adam Driver (I wish he were Anakin Skywalker back in the day) because he can pull off the conflicted guy much better than Hayden. There is nothing in these 2 movies that have made me understand why he is what he is (that happens in the movie). I watched his scenes in TLJ many times (especially the ones with Rey) and was hoping that something would click for me so I get what JJ and RJ are trying to portray regarding him, but it's just not working for me.

Again, I come back to that the reason these types of dramatic arcs don't work for me in the PT and TLJ is because these movies are still made for kids. It's very hard to flesh out this character the way they want to do like many adult movies, but still make it kid friendly. That is why the OT works because it didn't try to do this so it was able to tell a grown up story, but still be kid friendly so it got the best of both worlds. Think about it, the smartest thing Lucas ever did in the OT is giving us very little backstory on Anakin, so he wasn't forced to really flesh out his character in ANH, ESB and ROTJ.

Anakin/PT and Kylo Ren are 2 of the most complex characters in the franchise, and you can't hold back in terms of fleshing them out. Unfortunately, when you are making a movie for adults and kids, that type of storytelling gets hamstrung compared to a pure adult R rated movie where you totally get the jist of the character.

 

He was, in his eyes, nearly murdered in his sleep by his holy warrior uncle.

I mean, that probably would have an effect on someone, especially someone already under dark side manipulation.

 

You kinda just proved my point in that you are judging one of the main characters in a trilogy of movies and his motivations from the past by a simple flashback scene (told 3 different ways)? To really delve into a character, you have to give the viewer more than that? The Godfather 2 dedicated a whole movie that went back and forth regarding flashbacks on the rise of Vito Corleone as that atleast gives you the jist of how he came to be Marlon Brando. Sorry, but that simple flashback doesn't work for me the way it is intended as its all conjecture and speculation by yourself (and probably the quotes you read from Rian Johnson).

 

i find it really intriguing that people can't relate to Ben Solo.
he's a textbook case of privilege and abuse: utterly invisible and completely confounding in his behavior.
it really makes me quite sad, but i'm not at all surprised.

but i will say i don't understand your point about Vito Corleone. we didn't need a movie to tell us where he came from and how he got to be the Godfather. the original movie isn't made less if you take that second film away. it's nice to have another story and it's a story that works, but not everything needs to be explained all the time. same is true for the PT. the OT isn't less because we didn't have all the answer. and from my pov, it's not necessarily "more" for having them either. there's a critical component to storytelling where the imagination needs to live and breathe. a tale with no mystery, and nothing to solve or figure out or engage with isn't much of a story in my opinion.

as far as expectations are concerned, i don't need to be told why Ben Solo is a raging mess. it's self-evident to me. explanations would be superfluous and, frankly, would run the risk of cheapening the potency of the fact that part of what makes him tick is precisely that he's very much misunderstood.

we're never going to understand why everyone does everything they do all the time. it's part of what makes human interaction interesting and surprising, and, well, human. it remains to be seen whether we will get more answers with Ben Solo, but we either bring our empathy to the table and try to understand his point of view, or we condemn him. same as we do everyone we meet every day. : D

 

I was just bringing up a point about the Godfather 2 and the multiple flashbacks told over 3 hours compared to one (3 part) flashback told in TLJ. We didn't need to know about the backstory of Vito Corleone, but my point is more of less the way it was told.

It's not just about the answers, as I do agree it could cheapen the story. It's about how it's all told, and I believe it could have been better in TLJ. THIS was the movie to really flesh out Rey and Kylo Ren (instead of wasting 30 minutes with Finn/Rose), and that is where I think it missed the mark. The Rey/Kylo (along with Luke) parts are the best parts of TLJ, and I wish there were more. I think if TLJ had 2 stories going on (Rey/Kylo/Luke/Snoke) and the Hux/Poe/Leia/Holdo chase cutting back and forth (instead of 3), there would have been more time to explore on Ach-Tu and the Force Connection parts.

 

i don't necessarily disagree there could have been more. i see that people struggle with why Rey would go to Kylo Ren, etc. because they're not in her head nor understand the connection she feels with him (both in the Force and as "discarded" children). i ask myself whether Rian dropped the ball on that or whether it was intentionally left as a bit of blank spot since we too don't know what it's like to be either Rey or Ren and part of the point of the story is how that alienation draws them together and how Rey discovers that despite her own sense of alienation, she's overlooking that she's not at all alone (i.e. he's not the only answer).

it's a subtle choice, maybe, but i think that was the point.

like i said, we may yet get more information on the whys and whatnot with Ben Solo (in ix or in the EU), but for now i think the story is working with themes that are about miscommunication/misunderstanding/not knowing the whole story/not seeing the whole picture, etc. and that's part of the deliberate narrative. not sure. that's just my sense.

 

The Ben Solo character strikes me as a sort of comment on a specific real world plight. The advantaged young male, neglected by his well-to-do parents, acting out for attention, is sent away to ‘shape up’. A fostered resentment and disaffection from this dismissal leads to susceptibility to extremist viewpoints and organizations that offer a lacked sense of belonging and affirmation.

Basically, the training temple massacre is a ‘school shooting’. The Knights of Ren are a sort of ‘Trenchcoat Mafia’. The First Order is some radicalized militant hate group that exploits that type of alienation. Just putting that out there.

Finn’s initial motivation was to get Rey’s beacon away from the Resistance because he cared about HER and NOT them. An opportunity arose where he could potentially keep both parties safe and he took it - because he’s a decent person.

Luke had no loyalty to the Rebellion when he joined the assault on the Deathstar. He did it because he’s a decent person and believed it was the right thing to do. Han wasn’t sympathetic to any ideas of revolution, he just wanted to help this kid that was in over his head.

Rey, similarly, simply wants to lend the Resistance an assist because she’s a decent person and believed it was the right thing to do (and wanted to meet Luke anyway). Finn, similarly, just wants to keep her safe. Their respective deepening commitments to this cause over time is part of their individual arcs within the story.

 

Not really trying to prove anything.

Obviously I can't tell where the goalpost sits for you, nor if you're willing to move it, so I guess all I can say is "Sorry you personally had this experience you found lacking with this movie, I guess."

 

I never killed anyone, so why would I relate to Ben Solo? I don't go around blaming other people when I screw up, because that's being a coward. This is also why there cannot be a redemption story. He's already privileged, and he can't appreciate what he has. Compared to Rey and Finn. He's had it way too easy. We don't negotiate with terrorists. We never sympathize with them. We don't honor them. We only speak of the harm they caused others.

Decent person is fine. However, we still have our own wants and desires. There is nothing in this that serves them. I could follow Luke and Anakin on their journeys, because that is what they wanted. I never heard that from Finn or Rey. The Resistance needs them more than they need the Resistance. Finn helped Rey because she looked at him like no other. There is none of that in TLJ. Their was so much fighting within the Resistance that no one in their right mind would have joined them and you know it. Rian Johnson showed the Resistance to be more incompetent than a group worth joining. Rian used Rose to make Finn feel guilty instead of being grateful, and that doesn't work for me at all.