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Were "fan expectations" the problem?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jaxxon, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. Rodney-2187

    Rodney-2187 Guest

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    If you go into a movie on a seek and destroy mission to find something wrong with it, then you always will because there's no such thing as a perfect movie. If you go into a movie with firm ideas about how everything should go, then you'll most likely be disappointed when you should be surprised.

    I go into a movie with expectations of enjoying myself and an open mind, ready to appreciate the hard work of talented people who just want to entertain. I most often have a great time.
     
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  2. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

    Obi-Wan: I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old for this sort of thing.
    Luke: I can't get involved! I've got work to do! It's not that I like the Empire. I hate it! But there's nothing I can do about it right now. It's such a long way from here.

    This concept is one of the core tenants of the series. Decent people can’t just sit idly by while innocents are made to suffer. Refusing to be part of the solution is the same as being part of the problem. It was a crucial part of Luke’s character and now it’s a crucial part of Finn’s.

    Maz: I've seen evil take many forms. The Sith. The Empire. Today, it is the First Order. Their shadow’s spreading across the galaxy. We must face them. Fight them. All of us.
    Finn: There is no fighting against the First Order. Not one we can win.

    Finn’s continuing arc from TFA into TLJ is fully getting past his previous mindset and embracing what Maz was saying. Finn finally got off his fence and picked a side. However capable the Resistance is, they’re the only game in town. He either does it with them or does it alone. Strength in numbers.
    Rose’s function in the story is to help open Finn’s eyes - to implore him to “look closer”. He was “programmed from birth” within the First Order. "Taken from a family [he'll] never know and raised to do one thing." He has no practical life skills or concept of the larger world outside that rigid framework.

    He’s a good person, but ignorant to the unseen suffering around him. Her job is to point him to his path like Jiminy Cricket on Pinocchio‎’s shoulder. She believes he’s a hero and wants him to believe it too. That’s the point of the character. I’m sorry that element bothered you so much.
     
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  3. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    But i thought you wanted less character development “a la Vader” in the OT. How do you reconcile that with wanting Rey and Finn more fleshed out? There is a contradiction there somewhere...
     
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  4. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    No contradiction at all. The PT is about Anakin, the OT is about Luke, and the ST is about Rey/Kylo. The OT was never about Vader, hence why the mysteriousness of his character worked. If the ST was solely about Rey (like the OT was about Luke) than I think the more mysterious Kylo would have worked.
     
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  5. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I think I probably “understand” Kylo more than I “relate” to him... I see how he, as a person with a volatile power like the force inside him, was seduced by the darkside. The circumstances were right: he was neglected, discarded, made feel like a burden... And a powerful force predator took advantage of him. Things like that, minus the force, do happen to people... privilege in these cases counts for little, and sometimes even makes things worse, because those born in privilege are normally less equipped to endure hardship of any kind.

    As for what “terrorism” means and “who is a terrorist” it is in the eye of the beholder, isn’t it? It is a word used by the establishment to name those using violence against it. The First Order are terrorists in the context of the new republic, but the rebels were the terrorists in the context of the empire... what defines Kylo as “bad” is the parricide, is killing an old family friend in cold blood, is trying to destroy his love ones... His “terrorists” acts are part of a war. A misguided war, but a war nonetheless.
     
    #265 Kylocity, Mar 11, 2019
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  6. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I agree that if you go into it to destroy, absolutely, SW isn't your club house (it's too easy, that's not what the story is about). However, that's isn't most "haters" of TLJ in my experience. It's dismissive of the arguments, and dismisses how subjective the arguments are. People say they had no expectation, but they lie (or, more sympathetic, they simplify). We expected space ships, lasers (blasters ect), lightsabers, the force and its effects, exotic locales, Jedi, established characters ect... I'd say going to a SW movie, we all shared about 90% of expectations for what we we're going to see. The last 10% either you truly were completely open on, had a very meager expectation, the expectations met yours closely enough to accept, or landed outside of your expectations.

    Beyond that, if you felt trolled by the content, then it would affect your opinion that had nothing to do with your expectation. An example would be when I was introduced to Space balls, I think I was 10 or so, I was told it was a sequel to starwars, or "like" starwars. I love Spaceballs now, but when I watched it as a kid, I hated it because I felt it laughed at something I loved (I failed to in. I figured out it was just a spoof, but it was my first introduction to that idea. So I never fully enjoyed my first viewing of Spaceballs. Yet it had lightsabers, lasers, space ships, droids ect... everything SW had, just put together differently. Humor, characters a bit off, story slightly skewed, a different tone.

    It's not that reasonable expectations weren't met, it's that for some people it went outside their ability to suspend their disbelief. Once that happens, the universe becomes a house of cards. Fantasy requires the reader or viewer to buy in. We're all different on where that line lies.

    That's TLJ to someone like me. It just doesn't feel right, it doesn't seem to fit. Had it been an alternate universe, I could have accepted it, no problem. As a continuation to the saga just doesn't fit for me.

    I think I would have been able to better enjoy TLJ had they not tried so hard to explain Kylo's motivations, so in that way I agree. They're attempts, three flash backs no less, to explain his journey, either is important to the story, or it isn't. If it is, then I need to understand that to understand where the story is headed (I feel it lacks exposition in this regard). In this case I believe it's more important if this is a redemption story. If his story is not a redemption story, then his reasoning, his journey doesn't matter so much (thus we didn't need the flashbacks, leave Luke's failure to our imagination). Think Vader, we didn't get a back story on him, and it was fine. All we needed was his relation to Luke to increase the stakes, but beyond that it didn't matter (until the PT).

    Which is why I'm leaning toward this being a redemption story. At the very least, Kylo is important to the story beyond IX, or his history is important/pivotal for something coming in IX. Thus the flashbacks are important and you have to accept that premise to accept the trilogy (which is my hang up). Or RJ went off with his own idea and JJ has a completely different one lol (Which I'd hope is unlikely they'd be so reckless with this multi billion dollar acquisition).

    Beyond that, I think there is still great potential for the trilogy. There could be a major curve ball in IX that makes everything make sense for a doubter like me. Admittedly, I'm afraid of getting too optimistic about that and being accused of having too many expectations lol. But in a story where everything is wide open, the possibilities are endless, they can conceivably do anything they want with very few constraints. It's an entire galaxy after all, spanning thousands of years, with a power that has no clear definition in the Force.

    Because they place such an emphasis on Kylo and Luke in TLJ, that almost has to be central to the story in IX, otherwise why bother? It doesn't have to matter for Luke (but it can), but it almost has to matter for Kylo. Kylo isn't a Vader or a Maul, he is very different in that respect. So again, it goes back to that Kylo/Luke interaction. If as a fan you can't get over that, the ST likely won't work for you, unless there's more to come in IX that polishes that off. It could have even been made the way it was intentionally, maybe the struggle to believe that has a purpose we don't yet see.

    I don't think it's that we don't understand Kylo, it's that we can't suspend our disbelief on the scenario played in the flashback without additional context. I think those flashbacks are going to be imperative moving forward, somehow central to the story moving forward. If it isn't I have to really question why RJ focused so much of TLJ on that issue. I think this is what will make the ST a success or not.
     
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  7. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Oh I see what you mean.

    Well, yes, the OT was about Luke in the same way the ST is about Rey, but that didn’t stop Han Solo being more entertaining and more interesting than Luke, specially in ANH. Sometimes you need that kind of interesting supporting character to make the main character and story better... that’s the way it works for me.
     
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  8. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    How long was the galaxy, Luke, Leia, Han, and the Resistance ignorant to the plight of thousands if not millions of children taken by the FO? It bothers me, because no one else in the movie feels this kind of burden. Not even the people like Han and Luke who can make a difference. That means these idiots haven't done anything in 23 years, but Finn who we don't want to be FS. Don't want him to show interests in his own family, and only mention his ability to clean is suppose to help the Force Sensitives and the Resistance who didn't do anything for him and others like him in the galaxy. Does that make any sense to you? I would have preferred he went to the Outer Rim and let the Resistance pick themselves up by their bootstraps and solve their own problems. We want him to be weak, but we also want this weakling to spend his life helping others. And we wonder why this franchise is having issues.
     
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  9. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Decades, it would seem. Not to mention places like Cano Bight which didn’t just spring up overnight.
    That’s the premise of this trilogy. The previous generation, with all their lofty ideas and well intentions, couldn’t make good on those promises. They fell short and now it’s up to the next generation to “finish what they started”.
    Finn isn’t someone with space magic or from a storied legacy or some foretold chosen one. He’s just a man. Like you and me. And he can still make a difference. He can still be a hero. Regardless of his past. Regardless of personal tragedy, he knows the difference between right and wrong and chooses to do good - to help others the way he wished others had helped him. I don’t know how that premise is anything other than inspirational.
    Yeah, plenty.
     
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  10. TheDarkTight

    TheDarkTight Rebelscum

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    Yes.
     
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  11. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Her baggage was established clearly in TFA though. So was her conflict. The question I ask myself is how does TLJ advance Rey? It concludes Luke's arc with Rey in support, it pushes Kylo to his destiny with Rey in support, but what does it do for Rey? She acknowledges her parents left her and based on that knowledge that impacts her actions... how?

    I once heard an argument that I found intriguing that "Rey was looking for someone else to be the hero for the Rebellion until she finally looks to herself to be it"... but if you watch the movie... she doesn't. She does look to Luke at first, then she does look to Kylo, then she goes back to what she has always been doing: helping the Resistance. Nothing new. She doesn't lift the rocks to be a hero or because she learned something profound about herself with respect to her parents or Kylo. She lifts them to help the Resistance - the same things she has always been doing (in my view)

    To be clear, if you enjoyed her story, I take no issue with you. I'm not saying or suggesting that it's impossible for you to like it because I didn't. But her story was deficient (for me).
     
  12. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    In TFA we see how Rey becomes a committed part of the resistance after defeating Kylo and embracing her force power. In TLJ, we become more acquainted with her and what makes her tick. This is enough character progression for me.
     
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  13. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    This is why I always see a SW movie twice before even thinking about discussing it. Once sitting in my seat for TFA I knew I had to see it again (even though it hadn't started yet, lol) because I was already feeling all tense and nervous....about a freaking film. That's too much emotional involvement, like a bad co-dependent relationship, to properly think about a film.
     
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  14. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I think I promoted this position at one point. My interpretation is that this is the overall trajectory of where her arc is headed. TFA points her to this destination, TLJ moves her toward this destination, and EPIX will have her reach it. She hasn’t fully embraced this role yet, but is on her way. RJ’s story is only the midpoint.

    Snoke: The seed of the Jedi Order lives. As long as it does, hope lives in the galaxy.
    Luke: I will not be the last Jedi.

    The Jedi represent hope in the galaxy. With Luke gone, that leaves Rey. I imagine this won’t be a role easy for her to adopt and that’s part of the personal struggle that shapes the character. She doesn’t consider herself worthy. She thinks of herself as “no one”. Recognizing her self-worth isn’t tied to where she came from is a big part of that. Or I’m waaaaaay the hell off base here and just seeing what I want to :)
     
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  15. Steven Lewis

    Steven Lewis Rebelscum

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    I've just been watching Family Guy's Its a Trap, wasn't expecting that to be the source of RJ phone joke in TLJ. On a more serious note, great laugh watching those.
     
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  16. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    For me this is one of the most magical moments I've ever experienced in a theater. I went in with my mind wide open and the film blew me away. I was really bummed that Luke passed away. That's natural for losing such a beloved character, but as time has passed it was handled in such a perfect way. Luke saves the day in a way I could have never expected and it's truly legendary moment.
     
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  17. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    He already made a difference. The reason the Resistance is still alive is because of him. Choosing right from wrong is fine, but he didn't choose right from wrong in TLJ. The moment he made a choice that was different than what Rose wanted he was chastised. Rose doesn't have the right to tell anyone what they should do with their lives. That's what the FO does.

    If Finn is so inspirational. Why did Rian choose Luke's sacrifice as the rallying cry for the galaxy? Instead of the man who started this whole ball rolling. The man who was mentally strong enough to break away from his captors and deliver the biggest blow the FO has received in two movies, and is still alive. Why is the inspiration of a dead man who wasn't actually there on Crait, and can't do anything to help the galaxy going forward is seen as more inspiring to Rian than the choices Finn made? If Finn is so inspiring as you say then you would recognize Rian's words about Luke being the inspiration for the galaxy doesn't make much sense.
     
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  18. Anubis78

    Anubis78 Mad we are all mad here.... Now time for tea
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    Because in all wars really or make believe you always take out the generals. Finn is a great character. He is key for the big wins, who cares about the 2 space ninjas. When you look at the numbers 2 people sword fighting over there or epic battles with 1000s. Finn make a difference on the big ones, not some bad teenage twilight love hate thing.
     
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  19. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this I think. If Finn, the character himself, feels he can do more beyond what he already has, then that’s all that matters to me.

    I’m not sure what moment with Rose counts as chastising. When she prevented him from needlessly killing himself out of concern for his life - then immediately explained her motivations?
    I’m not sure I understand this question: Why was the self-sacrifice of a living legend - a larger than life myth known throughout the galaxy by all as a paragon of virtue and hope - more of an inspirational gesture than the death of an unknown person in service of a goal that may have been entirely fruitless? That seems fairly self-evident to me.

    The implication I got from TLJ was that Finn wasn’t stopping that cannon. He’d be obliterated without accomplishing anything - a pointless death fueled by blind hatred. A wrongheaded impetus (in the movie’s opinion). I could be way off on this, but that’s how it makes sense to me.
     
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  20. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Correct, when Poe calls off the attack it's because he realizes that the losses sustained vs the risk of succeeding is not worth it. Poe as a character takes a big step forward. A minute later, Finn takes that same step. The ship is falling apart. He's not even moving forward at the time Rose knocks him out of the way. He's essentially stuck as the ship doesn't have the power to generate the forward momentum to destroy the cannon. Finn would have disintegrated before reaching it or just done absolutely nothing to it because he had no momentum.
     
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