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Were "fan expectations" the problem?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jaxxon, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    so your expectations of what you wanted from TLJ was your problem?

    different thread.. different topic.. same handful of people posting the same negatives about the movie over and over and over again.
     
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  2. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Reylo wasn't even a thing in the fandom while Rian wrote the script. JJ is the inventer of Reylo. JJ built on that idea. End of story.

    Rey and Kylo are the two main characters. That's what it served for.

    Yes, it could have been done better. For example let Kylo be on the island for real and meet Luke and Rey in person. This would have been my most favorite outcome.
     
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  3. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    This looks like your expectations. Even with that I ask how did you expect some of this? For 1 Rey left Finn in TFA and we knew that TLJ was taking place directly after TFA. Rey wasnt an Uber going to pick up Luke. Luke ran away and it wasnt TLJ that said this. It was TFA. The opening crawl and Han dialogue tells us that Luke disappeared and they people that knew him best think he went to find the first Jedi temple. They thought he did. He did not tell them he did and give them anyway to contact him. The film wasnt going to be Rey getting to Ach-To and Luke basically give her some quick training and they then head back so she can be with Finn.

    Rey motiviation for Kylo is the Resistance and empathy. We have seen this in Star Wars before. I mean hell look at Luke and Vader. It is myth. Myth ignores the sort of motivation of what Kylo did to Finn. Again look at Luke and Vader. What Vader did to Han and Leia. Rey had a calling and at the end of TFA she stopped ignoring it.

    People should have known from the beginning that Han, Leia and Luke were all supporting characters. The relationships and characters to be developed and lead were never going to be the elders of the story. They were meant for mentorship and developing the new leads.
     
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  4. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I think I conflated a few ideas in my response to @Rayjefury, so I don’t blame you. I got a little lost there too. So many thoughts stepping on each other while self-editing.
    I was trying to address the issue with inconsistency in values – that moralistic aspects that didn’t used to be a problem, now suddenly are and weren’t setup properly. My intended counter was that societies change over time. Art is a reflection of the culture that produced it. Our culture has changed and so has the GFFA. It’s been 30 years of progress in that world. They shouldn’t necessarily have to convince anyone that human bondage and animal cruelty are considered ‘bad’ now. It was always a problem even if it hadn’t been directly addressed at the time. I understanding wanting an explanation, but I don't personally feel it's needed.

    That got muddled in my mind with questioning what implied message this ‘new’ trilogy is trying to communicate (if it even is). Is it saying something new, advancing the conversation, or is it just repeating what was already said but from a modern perspective? The institutions of the prequel era failed and massively so. The new institutions, stood up in the wake of the original era, also failed. What reason do we have to expect the new NEW institutions that are stood up after this conflict will fair any better? There’s a special word used to describe the act of doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. How are they going to do it differently this time in order to avoid making the same mistakes? Are they even going to bother?
    The Force in Star Wars, to me, is a simple metaphor. It represents the potentiality of human nature. We are equally capable of great good and great evil. Which direction we point is determined by what’s in our hearts and minds. Are we guided by our mindfulness and compassion and evolved sensibilities, or are we ruled by our base emotional reactions and self-centered leanings. We all have a ‘darkside’ within us. The dilemma is how much control we allow it.

    The PT is about how the darkness, thought to be extinguished, vanquishes the light. The OT is about how the light, thought to be extinguished, vanquishes the dark. But light can’t exist without the dark and the dark can’t exist without the light. It isn’t realistic that either extreme can truly be defeated. There will always be despair and there will always be hope. The ST, *I’m guessing*, is about recognizing this interconnectivity and finding an actual balance between the two furies - an equilibrium - a mutual accord.

    Or not. The pendulum keeps swinging from one side to the other forever and ever: lather, rinse, repeat. That’s seeming more likely to me at this point.

    So, no, I’m not imagining a literal dark Force being that has to be physically conquered. That was technically Palpatine. Anakin, ‘ejecting’ his master, was symbolic of him exercising that dark influence from within - purging himself and the galaxy of its evil. TLJ ‘dismissing’ his analogue Snoke from the mix, makes me think they’ll focus more on the dynamic between Kylo and Rey (dark and light). Reaching an understanding between these two opposing advocates. Not romantically (I hope), but philosophically. That’s not as cinematic a premise as blowing up battle stations and fighting to the death though. So, probably not.
     
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  5. Mortis

    Mortis Rebel Official

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    He was already writing the script way before the Force Awakens aired and the legion of Reylo was born. So that is fiction.

    There were a few pretty substantial scenes with Kylo/Luke that shaped not only the movie but the saga. So their scenes were few and impactful. Also you are complaining about forming a meaningful dialogue between the hero and villain that did not result to the old beaten horse of recent cinema like a hero purposefully getting captured or the hero being detained while the villain monologues? I would take the force vision any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    She had a higher purpose. She was given a mission (in the previous movie) by Leia and she followed it through. She also ask about him. So Rey ignoring Finn is also fiction.

    Most heroes tend to answer the call to the good fight.

    First time she sees Kylo she tried to blow his guts out with a blaster and later calls him a monster. She has not forgot anything. Throughout her time on the island she gains empathy for him.

    Does anything need to happen in a movie? This is not anything close to a point.
     
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  6. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    One of the culminating moments of the story is the drama over whether or not Rey or Kylo will turn. For the individual choice that’s presented in the throne room to work, it has to be believable as an actual choice. The audience has to think it’s seriously possible one of them could switch sides.

    That only succeeds if Kylo has reason to think Rey can be corrupted and Rey has reason to think Kylo can be redeemed. That’s why we get their earlier canoodling. It isn’t pandering to the shippers. It’s setup for that later payoff. Now the characters feel mutual resentment on an entirely different level with the addition of personal betrayal. That’s some tidy writing.
     
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  7. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    That means she has no story of her own to tell. What does Rey want for herself? What does Finn want for himself? You have two lead characters who want nothing for themselves except to risk their lives for other people. Is this the story we are trying to tell in this country today? You don't think this kind of thinking is a problem?
     
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  8. Mortis

    Mortis Rebel Official

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    Family and belonging.
    That is not true.
    No.
     
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  9. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Seems to me you arent looking for a Star Wars adventure movie. Did you expect TLJ to be a story of Rey running off and being friends or more?
     
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  10. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    LOL, I know. What if ESB took that approach? What if that movie started off with Han and Luke totally absent because they were off ‘living their lives for themselves’? :D
     
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  11. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    Not to veer off topic but I agree with you. While I enjoyed Infinity War enough, I don’t think it is the masterpiece many make it out to be. While everyone raves about how interconnected and planned out all the Marvel movies are, that hurt Infinity War in my opinion because we all know there are going to be future Black Panther, Guardians, Spider-Man etc. movies so it’s obviously many of these characters are temporarily gone. I enjoy the Marvel movies but am not plugged into the fan base but I don’t get the impression it gets nit picked like SW does.
     
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  12. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Infinity War was fun, but I knew from the moment that Spider-man, Guardians, Black Panther and others that the dusting was temporary so I never felt like oh $%^% what just happened. Some of the dusted may ultimately be killed off, but it wouldnt make sense for some to come back and some not. So they will all come back and some may get killed off.
     
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  13. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    I guess you aren't into American history. If you did then you can see it from a mile away. There is a reason why this movie is called divisive. Ignoring the reasons why will only make it worse, but that's your choice.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 21, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 21, 2019 ---
    Do you have any other options or you can't think of anything else? The world is 360 degrees. Which means we have many ways to tell a story. It seems to me you are stuck with only one way to tell a story.
     
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  14. Mortis

    Mortis Rebel Official

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    I gave you something Rey wanted. You are the one overlooking an obvious character trait.
     
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  15. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    There should be a 'confused' rating for posts on here :D
     
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  16. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Shouldnt take this to a personal level. I am perfectly happy with how TLJ came out. As for the Rey/Finn relationship it seems perfectly obvious how TFA ended with Rey leaving to go find Luke that while Finn was incapacitated that the story would proceed in the general path that it did. Like I said before Luke didnt call an Uber to come and get him. The story wasnt going to be Rey goes gets Luke and runs back to Finn. TFA just didnt set up the story that way. Maz could also see just what Rey yearned for. It was belonging. It wasnt just a buddy. She accepted the call in TFA and is on the heroes journey. That involves Finn, but doesnt revolve around Finn which is what you believe it should. That is your prerogative.
     
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  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    SorsBandeam.png
     
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  18. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Favorite post of the day.
     
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  19. Anubis78

    Anubis78 Mad we are all mad here.... Now time for tea
    1030th General **** (Mod)

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    I think this thread derailed somewhere about page six and I think it does prove the point of the question.
     
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  20. Mortis

    Mortis Rebel Official

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    Yep that is why they both share a strong bond. Even when they are a galaxy apart.
    Not a theory. This stuff is clearly stated in the movie.
    Because she is waiting for her family. This is said several times in the movie.
    That is correct.
    That is also correct. You are on a roll.
    She is. She calls him monster and tried to kill him multiple times.
    I think that is speculation. Nothing in the movie states that as fact. Although I endorse this 100%. She does gain empathy for him and they share dialogue. She shares a bond with Ben not Kylo Ren.
    Yes she did. She needed him to come back and train her to be a Jedi. Would be stupid to give up because he initially refuses. Also it was her example that got him to go and become the legendary Luke Skywalker again.
    So a vision of her and Ben defeating Snoke and Ben turning to the light side is not a reason?
    Because she had faith in Ben and that is where the force was leading her.
    To defeat the invading First Order and restore hope the galaxy.
    Because that makes no sense. Luke is disillusioned with himself and the Jedi. The Resistance are clearly not those things.
    To find belonging, learn to use her power, and save those whom she has recently found belonging with.
    This is also conjecture. Also to play along with your "point" the healthiest thing one can do for your inner self is to forgive those who have wronged you in the past and accept them for the new people they have become.
     
    #320 Mortis, Mar 22, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
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