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Were "fan expectations" the problem?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jaxxon, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Jedi General

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    It's almost like you can ignore certain facts to make a comment anytime you want to.

    FACT: Mark Hamill created the name "Jake Skywalker".

    We are all entitled to our opinion as to WHY Mark came up with THAT name.

    I hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine.

    :)

     
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  2. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    I think sometimes people just want to work things out and speak to others about it. But, when someone just says "The Last Jedi sucks" or "The prequels just suck" without any sort of explanation or wanting to talk about it, that's what I don't understand. Like why take the time to jump online and just post a one or two line comment like that? I don't get that.
     
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  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Two reasons:

    To rile people up.
    To feel validated without having to earn it.
     
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  4. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    Its weird. I don't like The Last Jedi. It's not the film I'd have made. But I'm done complaining about it. It isn't gonna do any good to continue to moan and groan about it. I'm sure LFL knows there is a percentage, whatever it happens to be, that didn't like it. I'm sure they want to make good films and would like to please everyone, but also realize that you aren't going to go out of your way to ONLY please one set or subset or whatever.

    Anyway, I just hope IX is able to do what The Mandalorian has done, even though I don't think it will. I guess we will see in about a week or so.
     
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  5. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    the "problem" is us.

    some of us can't accept the opinions of others.
    some of us post things about the movies knowing that the post is inconsiderate.
    some of us are too quick to throw negative comments/ratings at others.

    no movie is actually terrible. no movie is actually badly written. no movie is brilliant. no movie is well or poorly directed.
    it's all subjective. it's all opinion.

    it's ok to love the movie.. it's ok to hate it.

    we want to hear everyone's opinion on these movies.. positive AND negative, but if it's an extreme view.. show some class with how you say it, and don't say it everyday.
    if you read an extreme view that you disagree with.. if you feel you have something constructive to say in a reply.. show some class with how you say it.

    it's really quite simple.


    we are the problem. our attitude to fellow fans is the problem. our lack of acceptance for other ideas and opinions is the problem.

    they are just movies. individually we will love some of them and unfortunately.. hate some of them.

    everyone who wants to continue to use this forum needs to take a step back and decide if they are part of the community, or if they simply want to use it like the youtube comments section and be purposely divisive.

    we are the problem. we are the solution.

    :)
     
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  6. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    Totally agree. Sometimes we get caught up in our own opinions (I know I'm guilty of this as well) and we act like it's some sort of life and death argument. If someone disagrees we jump into attack mode. Without thinking. With no consideration for how the other person is going to receive that post.

    It's okay for someone to love a film we don't like. And vice versa. We should listen to what they have to say. Try and understand why they hate it or like it, whatever the case may be. Perhaps if we don't come to agree with them we can at least understand why they feel that way.
     
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  7. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Jedi General

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    What I consider to be Rorschach blots and broken crayons,
    Krayoda 2.jpg
    could be someone else's rainbows and lollipops. Or, vice versa.

    ***
    Amen.

    The best solution is not being butthurt each time you read something that you don't agree with.

    The second best solution is to have fun, debate and laugh along with those you don't agree with.

    The third best solution is to ignore them.

    ***

    The final solution is to block their posts from your view.


     
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  8. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebel Trooper

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    I know he coined that name. It was the same discussion as the “i disagree with everything you’ve written” discussion, so I know the context. But that’s different than taking a screenshot from a video as a way to say “he’s mad” when it could be anything, especially when he approved of the film.

    That said, yes, he had to think of Luke as not his Luke. Why? Because, like the rest of us, like Harrison with Han, he had an expectation of how Luke’s story would go. Said story was not written down or canonized, so when the time came to write the next part of his story, he would’ve had to do similar unless it was almost exactly what he envisioned. Even if it was Lucas’s vision (which wasn’t too far off from the Sequels from what we have access to).

    That’s a catch of playing a character written by someone else. One may think what they want of the future of a character they play, but if the writer decides that isn’t the path to take, that’s it. You can discuss, which Luke and Rian I believe were also said to have done, but in the end, a good chunk of it is the writer’s vision.

    This also ties into being the viewer/reader. Stories are told to communicate, and some also to entertain. But it isn’t written entirely for the viewer, outside of continuity, really. It’s to be the story the writer wants to tell. Which is why we can speculate, theorize, but at the end of the day, the story is up to the writer and director, and we have to accept their vision. We don’t have to like it, but accept it, and understand that it can be a perfectly valid path for the story or character.
     
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  9. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Jedi General

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    Have you watched both videos from the red carpet and immediately following the premier? I have. Mark went from a gleeful, childlike exuberance to morbid Theodore Robert Bundy stare. Nothing speaks to me like countenance and body language. I'm in the business of modifying people's behavior, so I'm quite familiar with dirty rotten stares.... but what do I really know?:p


    And yes; over the past 2 years, Mark has said positive things about TLJ.... on tweeter and in interviews.


    Those words are mutually exclusive from his premier-night behavior.


    I came to the conclusion that Mark didn't know Luke was killed off.


    But that's a discussion for another day and time.
     
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  10. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebel Trooper

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    oh he knew. Rian said that during production Mark voiced disagreement over the mindset, situation, and death of Luke. He knew it was coming.

    now, i have no idea your career, but my point is the idea of using a still shot, which can be interpreted many ways (even body language can be. Correlation =/= causation and all that). A video clip? Bit more substantial. And credible.

    That all said. That doesn’t change the fact that Luke..isn’t Mark Hamill’s property, but the writers and directors. Expectations, theories, and the like are all well and good, but they ultimately need to take a backseat when it comes to the story being told in the moment. What matters is a consistent flow between question and answer. And going back and forth between TLJ and TFA recently, the things addressed in TLJ flowed well TFA, imo. Many criticisms Of TLJ started out as a result of what people expected, at which point I’ll say to the title, fan expectations were a problem, but only because people couldn’t let go of them for the answers we were actually given, or that were set aside as not as important for this film, but perhaps the third act or a side story.
     
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  11. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Hard agree.
     
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  12. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    Amen! I'd also like to add because a lot of people aren't very introspective. Something rubs them the wrong way, and they go off instead of asking themselves why they felt offended and connecting dots. Anger is a secondary emotion; if people feel angry about Star Wars, they need to ask themselves what's behind the anger first, and answer that before just labelling it all off.

    Too true! however...

    Even Infinity War and Endgame didn't save any twists for the third act or ending. Payoff, yes, but no twists.
    I've only known one story to really get away with this - the Mistborn trilogy for Brandon Sanderson. And that's because the dude is an extraordinary planner and wrote it back to back. Each book felt different, but there was a consistency throughout the trilogy.*

    Star Wars having rotating directors is awesome and I love it. I don't feel like there should be one main head over any part of Star Wars other than KK. But I DO think these directors need to all be in the room together, talking, hashing it out, and working out the kinks and details as much as they can before they start the first movie if possible. They couldn't really do this with the ST, but now they know. This is all for next time though.




    *And yes I know films and books aren't the same, but I'm saying the general principle of having all of the story beats and twists locked down before even starting the first one is very, VERY nice.
     
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  13. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I'll play devil's advocate for a moment: very few trilogies, especially movies, are thought out as trilogies because very rarely do you have the guarantee of a sequel let alone a third film.

    Part of what makes Star Wars special, at least the OT, is the feel that each movie has is wildly different than the last. ANH is very much a fantasy masquerading as a "serious" sci-fi movie, ESB is a fantasy love story/family drama masquerading as a "serious" sci-fi movie and ROTJ is just a good fun buddy action movie; with an incredibly dramatic third act.

    It really isn't THAT different tonally from 1 to 2 to 3 than the ST has been. I think it's largely overblown because we've had 40 years with it to digest it. So it feels so similar. In time, I think the difference from TFA to TLJ will be seen as such too.

    Even from Menace to Sith there are MASSIVE tonal shifts that don't always "align" with the first film.

    Now using your analogy of Infinity War to Endgame; I would argue the deaths at the end of Infinity War are a twist. Effective? Eh. But a twist none the less.\You are also essentially comparing the final chapter in the story to the middle. Which isn't fair to the middle chapter. It isn't supposed to just give payoff. That job is for the last one. Rise of Skywalker is here for the payoff. TLJ had to do the set up. Not the payoff. I think the problem was, TFA was all set up. So TLJ had to balance answering questions posed by TFA and still expanding things. The success it did there is obviously up to each individual.

    I don't want SW to feel overly manufactured like the MCU does at times. I love the MCU and have great fun with it but it's mostly just ice cream movies. It might be the best ice cream out there, but it's still just ice cream. I want more from Star Wars.
     
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  14. Palpatine was Framed

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    This is very understandable. I was pretty disappointed with the prequels but I still remember being labeled a "Lucas Apologist" because I had nothing bad to say about him and didn't cry about it for over a decade. Even though I really enjoy TLJ, I can see where it just isn't for everyone. We could have a great conversation about it.

    People that wanted to like it but didn't, were never the problem. People who choose to spend all day, every day, for years spewing out hatred over it...that's not a Star Wars issue, that's a cry for help.
     
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  15. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
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    Why is Sean Connery green now?
     
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  16. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    Agreed. But for Star Wars that was never the case, so this aspect of the devil's advocate doesn't really stand IMO. Lucasfilm and Disney knew before TFA came out that it'd go to Episode 9. They announced it as a trilogy and even had the directors before the first one came out.

    From Strange's explanation to Gamora's to Thanos' talks, ALL of them forecast the use of the Gauntlet. What we think is a twist "Thor's final move" is a Hope Spot. Payoff, not a twist. And the deaths were more of a "surprising but inevitable" in the sense of who died was surprising, but the use of the Gauntlet as well as the next movie being the OG team's last hurrah felt inevitable. And when you master that, then you get satisfaction.

    For Engame to TLJ, you're right. But what I'm trying to compare at least is that if there are twists, they better have been well foreshadowed in the previous two movies.

    I...used to feel the same. Until I felt that superhero movies can address themes in a more brazen and complex way than Star Wars has attempted (Killmonger is more sympathetic, understandable, and overall better than Kylo Ren. Let's engage in a fun debate over it instead of fighting), to better results for me. And superhero movies are empowering. I don't feel empowered anymore when I watch Star Wars movies. Many still do, and that's AWESOME. I grew up feeling empowered by them, but now...I don't...Sure, MCU movies might be ice cream, but when every other fandom is arguing and screaming and you feel lost, ice cream is nice.

    In the end, I'm not asking for manufactured Star Wars movies. I'm asking for confident, well planned, "we know where the ship is going" Star Wars movies. I don't want a wild ride ala "I don't know what's coming out next but I'm sure it'll be fun!" DC movies. I don't want "every origin story is a slightly different variation of Iron Man" MCU movies either. I just want a story that feels consistent with both characters* and narrative. Maybe Lucasfilm did plan everything out from the start - maybe every twist has been carefully planned and executed from the beginning. But why don't I feel that?


    *Just to repeat my first post on this thread, Luke is completely consistent; as is Kylo to a degree.
     
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  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Agreed Disney knew that it'd reach three but part of what people didn't like about the PT was the same voice in every movie, the faults in ep1 became the faults in ep 3. Part of what worked in the OT was the varying voices; Lucas, Kasdan, Kershner, Marquand.... Allowing for different minds keeps the story fresh and moving.

    You are really just dancing around calling it a twist. Marvel has "conditioned" us to not expect deaths like that so when it happens, it's a twist.
    But there weren't two movies before TLJ? Just TFA. TFA foreshadowed everything so it's basically a giant non sequitur for foreshadowing.

    I wildly disagree with this statement about MCU being more brazen and complex. For many, many reasons. You could argue that certain bits have this (the Guardians movies, Iron Man 3, Cap 2 & 3) but the rest really lack there. I can't really argue with your Kylo/Killmonger bit since there's nothing there but opinion; and all I can say is I disagree.

    I find your last point to be contradictory. You don't want manufactured Star Wars but you wonder why you don't feel it...if you felt it, it'd be manufactured but you don't want that. So it feels lose-lose for Lucasfilm on that front.
     
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  18. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    The points about Marvel are interesting, and I think they lend themselves to a different facet of this discussion as well: the issue of adaptations.

    With Marvel, the Snap was kind of a twist... at least for general audiences. We're conditioned to see MacGuffins like that as sort of a means to advance the plot, give the good guys an objective. Sure, the Death Star might blow up Alderaan in the second act, but the good guys can't have a total defeat in the end.

    But comic book readers and even bigger fans of the MCU pretty much assumed that was exactly what was going to happen. The discussions weren't so much "Will Thanos win?" but more "Who's gonna be left?". Even the fact that there were two movies coming out within a year of each other was a pretty dang big clue.

    Makes me wonder what Star Wars would've looked like if we just got adaptations of the Legends stories, instead. Would fans really want to see Thrawn and Luuuuke, or would that not be nearly as fulfilling? And perhaps the even bigger question- how would general audiences react to Blue Sherlock Holmes being a villain, and silly named clones?

    I feel like Marvel is just as silly and outdated at times when it comes to some of the stuff in older comics, but it so often works in the MCU because of the way things are adapted. The MCU isn't the definitive Marvel, in that no one expects the movies to be beat for beat adaptations of the comics. But with Star Wars, had they decided to adapt the Legends stories, I think a more faithful adaptation would probably have been expected. Does that make sense?
     
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  19. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Jedi General

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    Comment of the day. +1
     
  20. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    What made the snap a big yawner for me is who they killed. Because we knew the films in production we knew the snap was temporary. We all knew going into Endgame that they were all going to come back. Then maybe someone would be killed off.
     
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