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Were "fan expectations" the problem?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jaxxon, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    I thought this way as well. I figured they just wanted to make it "for everybody." But then you are assuming it was never "for everybody" and that is bunk. I teach in a majority minority high school (85% Latino/a) and I have had several of my female star wars fans tell me they don't like Rey. Why? They feel (it is an early college high school) that she is "too perfect" (they said "Mary Sue" but I don't want to start that argument up again). They each said they can't relate to her.

    As for the social agenda, it is hard to say. But they do seem to be going out of their way to make the men appear to be dunderheads. Even the new cartoon Galaxy of Adventure has changed the story around in A New Hope so that Luke looks like an idiot, and Leia is smacking him around. Would they have made the cartoon with Leia looking like an idiot and Luke slapping her around?

    They need to focus on just making good stories. Stories where characters face challenges, screw up and grow from them. They need to put story first, and then move from there. Don't make a "female hero" just make a good character. Then decide if the character is male or female or whatever. I love Ashoka Tano and her arc. Same for Leia and Padme. I never cared for Mara Jade or Jaina Solo, but as I'm reading the New jedi Order more and more I love those characters too. Why? Great growth and great arc. I hope we can get that for Rey, but more and more LFL shows me they are pushing an agenda and the story is not their top priority. I'd love to be proven wrong with IX.

    I apologize for the rant.
     
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  2. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Thanks for giving me permission to speak for myself in an online forum dedicated to opinions about Star Wars. :)
    It's not really comparable to me. The prequels were viewed by fans and no-fans alike as being a bit of mess. This was reflected in reviews from critics and the audience. TLJ was a box office hit, well reviewed, and scored well with audiences. The biggest difference to me is that the internet is magnifying minority sentiment much more than it did in the past. That's reflected by every controlled measure of what people actually thought of TLJ. The vast majority of people liked it. That's just the reality.
     
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  3. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I will guarantee you right here that Episode 9 will make less at the box office than TLJ, and that is goes against what happened in the PT where ROTS made more money than AOTC. So it's a different type of toxicity as the fans still stuck around for Episode 3, and came out in bigger numbers to see how the story ended. If Episode 9 makes less then Episode 8, which made less than Episode 7, that will be 3 straight Saga movies that had a downward trajectory. That is not an internet minority, that is a fanbase slowly become less interested in the Saga Story as it progresses.
     
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  4. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I'll admit that TLJ was a bit preachy at points (the Fathier scene especially) but I can't help but think that some critics are a bit too harsh on TLJ's message.

    I don't want to delve too deeply into the real life politics of this subject (and I'm absolutely not accusing anyone here of this) but this has shown in part to be another case of the alt-right hijacking discussion to criticize agendas that they disagree with.

    So, while TLJ had a message, I find it kind of hard to blame them for trying to share it.
     
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  5. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    If JJ delivers a film that scores as well with audiences as TFA/TLJ it should cruise past TLJ pretty easily. So far the ST box office numbers are in line with trilogies.

    Episode IX's box office will depend on the movie. If the general audience likes it then it will make big money.
     
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  6. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I certainly don’t have any census data to back up my anecdotal claim. That’s just been my personal observation with the public perception of the brand. All are welcome, sure, but it’s historically a series centered principally around white guys. From someone standing on the outside of that, it probably doesn’t innately inspire a vibe of inclusivity.
    Fair enough. I see her as an immensely talented person, with enormous potential, who’s standing in her own way and squandering her gifts - crippled by a fear of failure and lack of self-worth. I’ve met a few ‘Reys’ in my life. Male and female. Heightened in presentation, sure, but not unrelatable. Well, not to me anyway.
    Yeah, I saw that short and laughed quite a bit to myself over how many fellas out there were probably blowing a gasket or two. I don’t know. I interpreted it as being from Leia’s perspective. That version of the character probably did view herself as being infinitely more capable than the dimwitted nimrods she was surrounded by. That’s what I think these Titmouse vignettes are getting at - recontextualizing these known events from the respective character’s point of view. Or maybe I’m just rationalizing :)
     
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  7. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I think you might be missing my point here. I am not arguing that Lucasfilm isn't trying to make a better appeal to a non-white, non-male demographics, I'm suggesting their execution of that effort has come at the expense of an existing and reliable audience while angering many of the non-white demographics it meant to pull in.

    If this were true, I suspect TLJ's storyline would have been vastly different (or maybe it is TPTB really don't have their finger on the pulse of the existing audience)

    They've always had politics (and therefore a message) in Star Wars. I think pivoting to the Alt-Right angle is an easy way to dismiss criticisms about the sermonizing and messaging in SW (because it's easy to dismiss the Alt-Right). It is tempting to throw the baby out with the bath water when the water is that dirty. I think TLJ in particular has created the most unlikely of bed fellows, yes it includes Alt-Right elements, but it's not just white conservative men complaining about SW messaging. And to be clear, I'm not accusing you cawatrooper of this, it's just a tendency I've noticed in media around the internet.
     
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  8. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    That's fair (and honestly, we should probably get an award for having an actual civil discussion on this topic).

    Like I said, even I find TLJ a little too preachy at times, but I think there's a certain fervor against this from a small minority of fans that stems from far more than "isn't that a bit much?".

    I don't think this is the majority of fans by any means, but I do feel that they're one of the squeakier wheels, and I've seen some of their more problematic arguments seep into mainstream criticism. I agree that we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but when the bathwater has started to give a bacterial infection to the baby it's probably best to reevaluate your infant's hygiene.
     
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  9. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Yes, SW has always had it's share of politics (Lucas was a big WW2 buff), so a lot of the rise of the Empire dealt with historical matters. The difference with Disney is when they throw in 'free the animals' subplot in TLJ, as that just comes out of nowhere and I still don't know what the point is of that in the context of the movie? If they want to go after the 1% and say they are profiting off the Wars in the galaxy, that is atleast has some relevance to what is going on.
     
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  10. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Where was this preachy part? I never understood the thoughts that Canto Bight was a PETA video idea.

    As for people thinking LFL going after women and making fun of men. Funny this was just tweeted yesterday and it fits.

     
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  11. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Eh, I guess it's just a matter of taste, but the line about sending her fist through town or whatever just comes off as weird to me.

    Again, though, I don't let it ruin my good time.
     
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  12. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Yeah why in the world would anyone get that idea?

    [​IMG]

    Now I don't particularly care too much about a silly little cartoon but the irony is that in creating the silly little cartoon, LFL accidentally created a microcosm of their biggest problem with this issue. They want women to be badass, but they don't know how to do it without turning the men around them into buffoons. Man, I can't wait until Benioff and Weiss start working on Star Wars.

    Interesting tweet. How ironic that the female hero of the OT falls in love with the walking definition of toxic masculinity and has no romantic interest in Luke (even before finding out they were siblings).
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I know this is getting wildly off topic, but I think it's an interesting idea.

    Is Han still the "definition of toxic masculinity" by the time he gets with Leia?

    There's no doubt he'd fit that bill for a lot of the OT, but I think by the time the credits roll in ROTJ there's no doubt he's grown as a character.

    Consider this iconic moment (apologies for the not entirely canon edit... :p)



    He says:
    At this point, this is a Han who has been rescued by his friends, is humbled, trusts Lando to pilot his ship, has fully committed himself to the Rebellion's cause, and is letting the woman he loves know that he respects her choosing another man.

    I think think there may have been some attraction from Leia to Han's more scoundrel side, but it could absolutely be argued that she fell in love with a better man.
     
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  14. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Yes he is a different man when the credits roll on E6 - but she fell in love with him in E5. The relationship doesn't exactly resolve itself in E5 because of the whole frozen-in-carbonite inconvenience, but it isn't like Leia only developed feelings for the kinder, gentler Han Solo. She fell in love with the arrogant scoundrel who, quite honestly, treated her pretty condescendingly.
     
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  15. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    I think this does come into play. I have seen that false claim that RJ purposely was giving the middle finger to the fans. RJ holding up Steele Saunders “Your Snoke Theory Sucks” sticker is the perfect example. The whole point of the sticker was to be humorous. RJ found it funny and thought it would be funny to hold one up and have a picture taken with it. I believe it was Pablo who did the same thing. Some people just couldn’t take a joke. Was it because they were too invested in their own theories? Possibly.

    I think another issue is not that there speculation didn’t turn out but what they thought was important to be in the movie was viewed differently. The importance of who Snoke is is a good example. Many who did not like the movie are upset that Snoke’s backstory was not explained. They felt like it was important to be answered. They seem not to be able to accept that Rian and others did not see it the same way. That of course is ok because everyone is entitled to their opinion. Luke is another example. Many who thought that it was important for Luke to be unchanged from 30 years prior or the badass Luke from legends were upset with the movie. Those who felt like that portrayal of Luke was not that important tended to be ok with how Luke was portrayed.

    I do think there was a small subset of fans who disliked TLJ because they were too attached to their theories and Some who just didn’t like the answers that were given in TLJ. In the end the dislike that some have for TLJ is multifaceted
     
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  16. Mortis

    Mortis Rebel Official

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    [​IMG]
    Yeah I hate how woman are always making men look like bafoons. It is a total one way street.
     
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  17. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    It's almost like a common staple of humor is to have a "straight man" and a "clown".

    Good lord, are fans getting mad at men sometimes being the clown now. I still can't believe how many people thought Poe was entitled to anything from Holdo.
     
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  18. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Such buffoonery


     
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  19. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Maybe, but I don’t think so.
    Seems to me, from your wording, you’re stating that there were deliberate societal messages being forced on the audience in some effort to color opinion. Beyond the painfully clumsy Canto Bight allegory (the REAL ‘scum and villainy’ being those dastardly one percenters), I don’t grasp the supposed rhetoric. You sited “women” and “people of color” and their representation as being, I guess, unnaturally favored? What specifically are you referring to? The portrayals of Finn? Rose? Holdo? What?
    You specifically called it “sermonizing” though. Preaching, effectively. Implying their intended goal was to instruct the audience in some preferred mode of thinking with respect to gender and ethnicity. That’s the viewpoint I believe is imaginary. It doesn’t make sense to me that LFL, a Disney owned entity and profit generator, gives even a fraction of a damn about pushing any sort of political agenda.

    They’re trend chasing if anything. Trying to adapt to an ever evolving cultural landscape and stay relevant. If that tactic alienates anyone, then they’re probably banking on netting more wallets than they’d realistically lose. I see them reflecting societal norms, not dictating them.
    How so? Please explain.
     
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  20. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    See, I think everyone has their theories but that isn't what makes or breaks it for a movie. I think we all overanalyze why fans love or hate any movie, cause it's real simple: We love it because the movie works for us, or we hate cause the movie doesn't work for us. For example, Rocky 5 and 6 both show Rocky in post-retirement (and he is not that great boxer/gladiator that he was in the previous movies). I hate Rocky 5 and love Rocky 6, so I was always open to a 'past his prime' Rocky, it all came down to the execution. I think Rocky 5 is horribly executed and a bad movie, and I think Rocky 6 is perfectly executed and a great movie. That is sort of the way I feel about TLJ in that the Luke character is executed much like the Rocky 5 character, as it just doesn't work for me. Now if 'hermit' Luke was executed in a different way (much like Rocky 6), than I may have liked the movie.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 14, 2019 ---
    I actually thought this was a very funny scene, and doesn't make Rey look foolish, but more naïve.
     
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