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Were "fan expectations" the problem?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jaxxon, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    I don't know how Canto Bight - which directly reflects plenty of Lucas' political viewpoints (as does the Banking Clan, Trade Federation, whole plots of the Clone Wars, Count Dooku's appearance and character) is sermonizing in any significant way different than prior SW content. And the whole "don't abuse thoroughbreds or children" isn't controversial. Child labor was decided 100 years ago in Western society. We've destroyed OTB because of thoroughbred deaths and abuse uncovered and publicized in the 1980's. None of that is from some hardcore extreme viewpoint.
     
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  2. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    I suppose that is a common staple from a Will Ferrell movie, but that certainly is not the only type of humor.
    Call me crazy, but I don't want clowns in Star Wars. (I was very critical of the prequels because that's all JarJar was in E1 and I will say the same thing for the E8 with Finn and Poe). I would be equally critical if Leia was treated in such a clownish manner. Maybe some day Disney/LFL will learn you can have humorous moments without treating any of the characters like clowns and you can have strong women without making men look like buffoons. The Star Wars I remember had Leia giving Luke a kiss for luck, not a smack in the face for his bumbling incompetence. But this is getting OT for this thread. I'll be happy to continue the discussion in the appropriate subforum should anyone so desire.
     
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Oh come on, you're saying LFL has literally never had humorous moments without this type of humor?

    And I get it, it's not for everyone- but comedy has variety. I'm not saying Star Wars does or should exclusively use this type of humor, but limiting themselves doesn't really help, either.
     
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  4. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    It's a kids cartoon.
    ThoughtfulSpecificJackal-size_restricted.gif
     
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  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I don’t know, seems on topic to me. You had your own expectations that weren’t properly met to your satisfaction and soured you.

    Out of curiosity, which moments in TLJ, in your opinion, depicted male characters as buffoons in order to elevate a female character?
     
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  6. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    lol, and Luke blasting the bridge controls.

    Like....what else was your plan?

    Why did they even take the Stormtrooper outfits off? Why did they keep the belts on?

    It's hilarious.
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Didn't they leave their helmets in the detention block? Not very convincing disguises at that point, yeah?
     
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  8. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Maybe Stormtroopers keep Snickers in their belts to keep Vader from snapping all the time
     
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  9. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    That gif shows how Star Wars is serious and Han Solo is a very serious man.
     
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  10. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Well, maybe not all that serious of a man...

    tenor (17).gif
     
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  11. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Also I guess John Wick which is widely considered an incredible action movie and series is triggered by the main character having a puppy killed. The whole audience gets enraged and understands that he must take revenge. Was this a PETA advertisement as well? So we have a scene that shows that beasts in the Star Wars universe may be abused according to some people and oh my god how dare they push anti-animal abuse on me. Probably would have been OK had it been dogs racing instead.
     
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  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Just to play Devil's Advocate- was the treatment of the Fathiers really something that resonated with you? Did you walk away from the film really even thinking about those scenes much?

    I do feel like it felt kind of shallow and forced. We've seen animal cruelty done a lot better than that on film before. It's not that the message was bad, just that on top of everything else going on in the plot, it felt kind of forced.

    I think one constructive thing the film could've done is to have picked its battle in Canto Bight.
    -Is it a city that mistreats animals?
    - Is it a city that mistreats the poor?
    --Is it a city that mistreats children?
    - Is it a city that is heavily responsible for perpetuating the conflict in the galaxy?

    Not that the city had to be defined by one single trait (that would be weird and probably bad writing) but the focus just feels really off. Having it represent so many different evils (in a B plotline) and asking the audience to really care about each of these problems might sound good in theory, but in reality it's just crowded.


    Now, to qualify this with how I actually feel- while I think Canto Bight was kind of a mess, it was at least mostly a fun mess and doesn't take up close to the 1/3 of the movie that some reactionary critics claim it does. It's really a pretty short segment, and doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the film in a significant way.
     
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  13. Sparafucile

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    I think the difference between GL using politics and the ST's use of politics, is that GL used settled politics. WWII, Watergate and Nixon and Viet Nam. Some of it wasn't as obvious and went over people's heads too. No one was going to stand up and say "You can't say that about Nazi's!" or "Nixon was right all along, nothing to see there!" or at the very least it would have been a tiny extreme minority. Nothing that could alienate half your fan base on the one issue (not necessarily alienate as in have them leave the franchise but strongly disagree with the message).

    The ST is wading into current politics, unsettled politics, the kind of stuff that is dividing the US at this very moment. They're also only showing one side.

    I'll use the Fathiers for an example.

    Ok, so the animals are being abused. No one likes animal abuse, however, in most cases wild animals live much more horrendous lives, shorter life spans and die much more violent deaths and worse health conditions. Horses for example have life spans of 7 years in the wild. In captivity, it's over 20, sometimes 30... 7 years being considered their prime. That's not to say abuse isn't bad, but what's the purpose? Only the most sadistic abuse animals for pleasure. It really does seem like we're being given the story through the lens of a PETA activist (Chewie feeling guilty for eating Porgs is another instance that feels forced imo). Lets not look at the whole picture and cloud the issue with facts, lets let our emotions take over and merely react to something we don't fully understand.

    The Fathiers idea could have been good if given context, spent some time on it to show the nuance. I'm not a huge fan of that idea, because it is a side story to a side story to a side story (Canto is a side story to the main drama, children side story to Canto, and Fathiers side story to the children and corrupt city).

    One of the politics the EU now legends used that I liked was using xenophobia of aliens as a replacement to racism. It's been a while since I read the books, but I remember them using it that way and I thought it was genius. Again, no one agrees with racism, what we don't agree with is what to do about it, but no one denies its existence or that it's bad practice and shouldn't be done. I remember those authors mentioning the mistreatment of Mon Cals and Wookies ect by the Empire.

    I'll end this blurb by saying I believe that it's a stretch to find strong commentary on our political situation in the movie, but it isn't so hard seeing it in comments made by media reporting on the ST. The media puts KK and company on the spot, and then they need to address it. They then sometimes get carried away or try and promote and that creates a perception that it's in the movies, people search for it and it becomes easier to detect. To my knowledge, GL never advertised his political stance while the movies were running, it came out after where he got inspiration. That's a big difference too.

    So tying this back to the title of the thread, I guess in some cases expectations were the issue, but not in the way this thread intended. The media (more than LFL ect imo) created expectations of these movies catering to a certain political demographic. People went to the movies with those expectations, and saw what was advertised. Was it really there? Maybe, probably yes. Was it properly nuanced? Quite possibly, but not under the microscope created surrounding the movies. If it followed your political leanings, it bothered you less or not at all. If it ran opposite to those leanings, it bothered you more or made the movie unbearable, or simply added to complaints you would have had even without the perception of pushing an agenda. If you're more or less neutral, or simply not that politically tied, the media likely still made you aware and could partially ruin the experience of escaping the every day world.
     
    #93 Sparafucile, Feb 15, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2019
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  14. KalKenobi83

    KalKenobi83 Rebelscum

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    it doesnt mean both films are bad films and they fit in with both trilogies i doubt Episode IX will cross Certain lines like Making Finn and Poe Gay
     
  15. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    Agreed. People's perception of political bias doesn't in and of itself make them bad films. However, if you go watch these films to get away from politics and every day problems, it could hamper the experience if you see it in the movie. If it goes against your particular political view, it would get a worse reaction. If you agree with the perceived message, it could elevate the film. In and of itself however, it doesn't make it a good or bad film.

    I don't think there was a heck of a lot of that message in the movies. I mostly didn't pick up on it during my first viewing, or it was easily ignored, so I don't think it impacted my opinion of TLJ overly much if at all. However, upon watching it I was less politically savvy or plugged in than I am now. I just wanted to watch a SW movie, a sequel to a movie that I had thoroughly enjoyed. A movie that I had avoided most trailers and such to be completely surprised and take in the experience without having anything spoiled.

    Edit: Even if they made Finn and Poe gay, I don't think it would bother me. I would just hope they didn't just do it as a token instead of weaving it into the story to make it impactful in some way.
     
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  16. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    A perfect example is Leia smacking Poe in the face when he ignores her orders. Can you imagine if a male superior smacked Rey or Rose in the face if they defied an order?
     
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  17. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    this thread is veering wildly away from what the OP asked lol

    [​IMG]
    :D
     
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  18. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    Whatever happened to the customer being right? Anytime you want to blame your customers for your work. You are wrong. The customer either likes it or they don't. If a customer hates your product. Then that means you are out of touch with your customers.
     
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  19. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    which product or products do you hate @Corn Cream ?
     
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  20. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    GL was much more in your face in the PT, much more then the ST has been.

    Didnt copy the rest of your quote, but will comment as well. The Fathiers were blown way out of proportion. Some people just really get triggered I guess that if someone in a film expresses negativity towards an animal being hurt then it must be some PETA statement.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 15, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 15, 2019 ---
    We can find countless examples of the customer being wrong. It just isnt true. Not to mention which customers?
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 15, 2019 ---
    Nope. Didnt phase me one bit. Most people I believe like animals and I have seen countless times films use animals to gain sympathy towards one set of characters over another. Like I mentioned John Wick the people viewing the movie were immediately on his side and blood thirsty almost because of the puppy being killed. I mean the Fathiers abuse was barely shown or talked about. I mean barely.

    And yes you are 100% correct about the Canto Bight sequence when it came to how much time was spent on Canto Bight. I timed all the scenes and it was like 11 total minutes of screen time. I think the bigger issue is some people didnt like it because it reminded them to much of the PT in it's look. This makes me sad, because I do want the Star Wars galaxy in EP9 to make it seem like a populated place. That is the biggest issue I have with the ST. The galaxy just seems like it is sparsely populated.
     
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