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Were "fan expectations" the problem?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jaxxon, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    And how did that work out? For all what Rey felt through the force or otherwise. She was wrong. At least Luke had success with his father. Luke realized Vader could have killed him in ESB when he had the chance, but didn't. The difference between Vader and Kylo is Vader fell to the dark side because of his fear of losing family. Kylo wants to join the dark side by killing his family.
     
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  2. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    who says she was wrong? we've got a whole movie to go yet bro.
    firstly.. to the last bit you wrote... huh? that's not in the movies i saw.

    secondly, why compare? Vader was Vader.. he was the chosen one.. one of a kind.. special, and his son was kinda special too.
    why do we have to even have a super bad villain in this trilogy?

    there are people moaning that Kylo isn't bad enough.. not evil enough.. not redeemable because he killed his father.. rubbish at fights.

    it's like some people needed him to be this 'stock' villain else he's what? rubbish?

    i must be lucky, because i see the most intriguing watchable character i've ever known in the entire franchise. I couldn't care less about the fate of the Galaxy or balancing of the force.. pfft galaxy be damned for all i care lol. From the moment i knew that the masked character in TFA was the son of Han & Leia (a long time before release) all i've been interested in is learning how he could have become so screwed up.. and more importantly seeing how it plays out. I wanted to see what had become of Luke and our other beloved characters.. but it was a messed up son that i was interested in.

    in my opinion LF have come up with a wonderful character and a wonderful story that tells us about this extraordinary family. It saddens me that so many don't see it the same way because of apparent expectations of what they wanted.

    Kylo Ren could yet still become more evil and more powerful than Palpatine himself - it could go that way.
    Ben Solo could emerge in the light.. walking away from the darkness and find some semblance of peace

    i honestly don't have a clue.. and that excites me. such a shame we don't all seem to feel that way.. but it is what it is i guess :)
     
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  3. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    The outcome says she was wrong. This is not 3x is the charm.

    We compare, because people want to believe this is a redemption story. I disagree, and I'm going to tell you why. Both went to the dark side, but for different reasons. Darth Vader's fall to the dark side was tragic. It's not what he wanted. Kylo on the other hand. Embraces the dark side, because he wants it. Kylo has made conscious decisions to kill his family in order to become more aligned with the dark side. Vader wanted to kill those from his past, because he didn't want to be reminded of who he once was, and what he lost. Kylo's conscious decision to kill Snoke was done in order for him to become top dog. There is nothing tragic about Kylo. This is what he wants.

    I think Kylo is a wonderful character. I just think we are seeing the rise of a dark side user. The one thing JJ and Rian Johnson both agree on is Kylo is the bad guy. Both directors created opportunities for Kylo to embrace the light, and he gave definitive answers by killing his father, and then Snoke.

    Luke tried to get his father to join him, but Vader felt it was too late for him, because he was broken. Kylo was never broken.
     
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  4. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    My opinion is Kylo also killed Snoke for 2 other reasons. He was persecuted by Snoke and was tired of that and he also has a thing for Rey and didnt want Snoke to kill her.
     
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  5. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    did the saga finish at episode 8?
    I'm surprised that you've worked out what Ben Solo wants.. i haven't, in fact.. i don't have a great deal of faith in thinking that he knows what he wants.

    I strongly disagree that there is nothing tragic about him. we know snippets about his turn to the dark side, but i have empathized with him since the beginning. Han died showing his son that he loved him.. he wanted him to come home, and so do i.
    [​IMG]
    i see a messed up kid who is being torn apart.. and i think Han would die a thousand times over just to show him that he was loved.

    it would be tragic if he was lost in the darkness.

    i think he is very broken.

    but.. it's nice to discuss these things and see how they turn out. I honestly don't know how it's gonna go in December.. can't wait! :)
     
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  6. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    I think Kylo always had plans to kill Snoke. Rey just gave him the opportunity to do it.

    I don't know if Kylo has a thing for Rey. It really shouldn't matter. The reason Rey left Jakku was because she had Finn. Rey could have left Jakku at any time, but she didn't. She wanted a life outside of Jakku, but she wanted family more. So she stayed, and held onto the belief of her family returning. When Finn asked Rey was she alright after she woke him up from the tie fighter blast. She realized this was someone who was thinking about her first. Even though she was the one helping him. Once that happened. She was ready to leave Jakku.

    When Finn was leaving for the Outer Rim, and Maz tried to get her to seek out Luke. She ran off. She wasn't ready to go any further, and she told BB 8 she was going back to Jakku. She wanted to go back to her safety blanket, because Finn was gone. Regardless of what Maz said. Kylo came and took Rey which sparked Finn to go after her. When he came to get her on SKB with Han and Chewie. She now knew someone cared enough about her to come for her. Finn also was the reason she picked up the light saber. When she saw Finn use it to defend her and him against Kylo she was ready.

    The TLJ moved away from that, and focused on the idea of Rey and Kylo. Thing is Rey wasn't ready for anything like that. She might have been powerful with the force, but she was vulnerable as a person. She had Finn, but he was injured. Finn waking up, and asking about Rey was in character. Rey moving too far away from her own safety blanket in Finn was out of character.

    Kylo is responsible for a lot of deaths. From killing Lor San Tekka, exterminating a village, observing the destruction of 5 planets by his organization that he now rules, killing his father, killing half of Luke's students, and using Rey for the opportunity to kill Snoke tells me he knows what he wants. Of course Han wants him to come home. He is no different than any other parent, but Kylo doesn't want what others want from him. He wants to be his own man. Killing Han was supposed to represent that. It might have been hard for Kylo, but like Thanos throwing Gamora off the ledge to get the soul stone. It had to be done if he wanted to move forward. The tragedy is how far Kylo is willing to go to accomplish his goals.
     
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  7. Grand Admiral Kraum

    Grand Admiral Kraum Force Sensitive

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    The main difference is that Empire was great, and The Last Jedi was meh.
     
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  8. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    You forget Rey’s new realised power in TFA has changed her. After all that happened in SKB she feels obliged to step up and assume her responsibility as a force sensitive. The whole of TFA is building up to that moment.
     
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  9. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Rey leaves Finn behind in the TFA. The moment she grabs that lightsaber on SKB she's made her choice.
    Yeah, that's the correct reading of TFA. It would be different if Rey refused to find Luke, but it's pretty clear that her path is to be trained.
     
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  10. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Maz: Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back. But there's someone who still could.
    Rey: Luke.
    Maz: The belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead.

    Playing by your rules, in the absence of Finn, Rey thought Luke would be her new "safety blanket". Seems well enough in-character by your definition to me :)
     
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  11. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    You may be right, maybe this is the direction this story is taking. Killing Han was definitely there to show Kylo’s commitment to the dark and maybe the trajectory of this trilogy is to show Kylo progressive corruption, and turn from unsteady villain to a cold blooded machine, like Vader in Rogue One or to a unstable maniac like Emperor Caligula, both scary and intimidating in different ways.

    I mean, if JJ tells me this story and he tells it well, why not? I can see Adam Driver playing the Vader or Caligula side of things very well. Is it what I would prefer though? Not really. I feel that it would somehow be a lost opportunity. For me the better story is not to have Kylo turning into the scariest villain ever, but to give him a chance to turn good and survive, a chance Darth Vader never had.
     
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  12. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    No she didn't, because she ran away when Maz told her to seek out Luke. He wasn't the belonging she was seeking. Finn created that sense of belonging Rey wanted, but when he was leaving for the Outer Rim, she wanted to go back to Jakku.
    Who say's he has to die? I want to see him take this as far as he can. I could be wrong, but I see this trilogy ending with all three lead characters still alive.
    And her choices didn't pan out too well. Kylo and Snoke were able to easily manipulate her so, maybe she isn't as ready as you think she is. Going off into the galaxy by herself wasn't what Rey had in mind. She wants adventure, but she wants it with characters that cares for her, and vice versa.
     
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  13. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Her responsibility as a Force Sensitive? Didn't she go to Ach-To on Leia's behalf to bring Luke back?
     
  14. Mortis

    Mortis Rebel Official

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    This is plainly said in the movie.

    Luke
    : All right; that is pretty much nowhere. Why are you here, Rey from nowhere?
    Rey: The Resistance sent me. We need your help. The First Order has become unstoppable–
    Luke: Why are you here?
    Rey: Something inside me has always been there... but now it's awake, and I'm afraid. I don't know what it is, or what to do with it, and I need help.
     
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  15. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Well, yeah, man. It's “refusal of the call” - hero’s journey 101. Rey rejected the lightsaber, the Force, and Luke because she was afraid of the unknown. Same as Luke when he initially turned down Obi-Wan’s offer in ANH.

    The movie ends with her accepting the saber - literally pulling it to herself, embracing the Force to fight Kylo, and then heading off to meet Luke. That’s not out of character even in the slightest. That’s where her arc was leading the whole time. Rey had a need for belonging and Luke was positioned within the story to be the subject of that aim. She took a detour getting there, sure, but that doesn’t change the setup and the payoff.
    Double duty. She also wanted to know what was up with all this Force shenanigans and Luke was the most knowledgeable person in the universe. Win/win.
     
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  16. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    The movie didn't end here. The only way this can work is if Rey runs away from Maz and the lightsaber and the movie ends.

    The movie doesn't end. Rey uses the force instead of running away from it. She didn't go back to Jakku. She went to Luke.
    To suggest otherwise basically requires ignoring TFA after Rey's conversation with Maz.
     
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  17. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
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    Just thinking. Maz isn't objecting, but she also doesn't confirm that she was talking about Luke. Maybe she was talking about Ben who could still come back.
     
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  18. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    3x in TFA Finn showed he was the belonging she was seeking.

    1. When he asked her if she was alright after she woke him up from being knocked out by the tie fighter blast on Jakku.

    2. When Rey realized it was Finn's idea to come rescue her on SKB.

    3. When Rey saw Finn fighting Kylo with the light saber she rejected.

    Now I will show you her response to all of 3 those situations.

    1. After Finn asked Rey if she was okay. She was surprised for his concern, but reached out with her hand and told him to follow her. Which led to them getting in the Falcon and leaving Jakku. First time leaving the planet.

    2. Rey hugged Finn tightly and told him thank you after discovering it was his idea to rescue her.

    3. When Rey saw Finn using the light saber she rejected to defend them. She realized she would do the same for them as well. The blaster didn't work for her against Kylo anyway.

    Now lets look at the times she rejected offers from other characters.

    Han offering her a job with him and Chewie on the Falcon, but she turns it down, because Han never displayed the kind of care or concern for her that Finn did.
    Maz offering Rey the light saber, and telling her to seek out Luke. But she runs away from this as well, because she doesn't want to do this alone. It's too much to handle. Her plans were to take BB 8 back to the Resistance, and go back to Jakku, but when Finn decided to leave for the Outer Rim. She didn't want to go any further. She wanted to go back to Jakku. These were just jobs that Han and Maz were offering, but Rey wanted someone who cared for her, and up to that point. She thought she had that with Finn. When Finn came back for her, and was willing to fight Kylo. She knew she had that with Finn. Also, look at how Luke treated her compared to Finn. It's not even close.

    The journey is everything. Getting to the top is fine, but the story about how you got to the top is even better.

    The movie is trying to tell you a story, and the point of the scene is to tell you this isn't what she wants. What she wants is family. She was starting to feel that with Finn, so the other offers she received from Han and Maz weren't the kind of offers she wanted. Only Finn showed he cared for her, and he did that through his actions. This allowed Rey to feel comfortable enough to go see Luke. She no longer had to go back to Jakku to wait for her family, because Finn became her family.

    My issue here is Rey never showed in TFA she was afraid of the force. Thing is when it's all said and done. She really didn't get any help from Luke, and Rey didn't become any wiser with the force for it.
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    1. Showing someone care is not showing them be the "belonging" or anything like that. It establishes Rey as guarded and Finn as caring.

    2. Again, that isn't showing Finn as her end game. That's establishing Finn as a character with a heart of gold who will ultimately do the right thing no matter what. Sound familiar?

    3. This literally has nothing to do with Finn being her "belonging" as much as, again, establishing Finn as a character who will defend those he cares about. Even when it almost certainly means death. Sound familiar?

    This is all about establishing Finn as a new Han Solo type character. Rough around the edges, seems in it for his own cause but ultimately comes back to save his friends no matter the cost.

    You can do this same kind of list with Rey/Han, Rey/Luke, Rey/Leia and Rey/BB-8.

    Why? Because the Resistance is her belonging.

    She turns down Han because it would mean not going back to Jakku which, at this point, she is still determined to. So context matters immensely there.

    Again, this is a pull away from Jakku which she is highly resistant to. She has no intention on joining the Resistance until AFTER she is captured by Kylo Ren and her destiny is inevitable. This is why she runs away from the saber. If she accepts it, she accepts whomever she is waiting for on Jakku isn't coming back.

    Her journey is about finding belonging and her family. She spends 2/3 of TFA thinking it is on Jakku. There is no singular one answer to her belonging needs. It's all of them. She needs Finn, Leia, Han and Luke. and it looks like probably Poe.

    Her refusing Maz and the lightsaber is all about her wants. It's a direct call to the answers of her questions but just not the answer she wanted. She's afraid of the truth and confronting it.

    Rey is afraid of answering the call of the force. She's afraid of what it could mean since she is alone without anyone who can help her understand or control it. She repeatedly says she needs a teacher or mentor and it's told to her as well. Remember, accepting this call will lead to her having to accept and confront her past to move forward. And yes she learns a lot from Luke.

    In the end, your reading of TFA isn't technically wrong. It's a subjective piece of art and you are more than welcome to interpret it that way. But ironically enough, here in a thread of expectations, you have to accept that TLJ interpreted TFA differently than you did. Your expectations and your reading of a very open-to-interpretation movie, was not how the next film maker interpreted the same film. He took it another logical reasoned direction that you didn't like but denying that it works or is illogical or bad because it didn't match your reading of the film, is incorrect. We now have the context of TLJ to apply to TFA. That's the whole point of my post, it's all in your reading of the two films together. Applying the context of TLJ to TFA's questions.
     
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  20. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Well, I assumed that Rey felt somewhat “qualified” to go to ach-to on Leia’s behalf and bring Luke back... The Rey of before TFA would have told Leia “thanks but no thanks” and would have gone back to jakku.

    As @Aloy of the Nora said, Rey is aware that she needs to embrace the force and seek guidance. It’s a “with great power comes great responsibility” situation.
     
    #160 Kylocity, Feb 22, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
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