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Were the Jedi good or flawed?

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by Lukestarbucker, Jun 5, 2020.

?

Did the Jedi lose their way?

  1. Yes

    78.6%
  2. No

    21.4%
  1. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Rebel General

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    Thank you. Now I understand. You know, that is why I post some forums, to learn.
     
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  2. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    Whenever we mention the hypocrisy and dogma of the Jedi Order, it's always worth pointing out the ingeniousness of Palpatine's plan. He forces the Jedi into a situation in which no matter their course of action, they will lose. If the Jedi Order abstains from the war, the Republic will lose, and all those under Republic rule will reject those who are meant to protect the innocent of the galaxy. If the Jedi enter the war in an effort to end it more quickly and save more lives, they will be corrupted by it, and viewed as warmongers and disillusioned warriors in an ivory tower (which they were) by the citizens of the galaxy. On top of that, the Jedi also cannot provide any support to the Separatist movement, as they know it's being controlled by the Sith, and any help they provide would also also aid the ones who started the war in the first place. This is exactly why the Galactic Senate, CIS, and public easily buy into Palpatine's lie about the Jedi's attempted betrayal of the Republic, as he'd already lain the groundwork.

    Yes, the Jedi were flawed, but that alone did not cause their fall from grace. Environment and circumstances play a large factor too.
     
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  3. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Absolutely!

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  4. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel Commander

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    The Jedi Order was good as far as orientation and certainly had the very best of intentions but still were deeply flawed is my view.

    They became hidebound which means necrosis will spread until the whole body dies unless steadfast and very strong action to reverse it and they never did.

    That which does not grow or change dies.

    They let dogma supersede life and never let go of it and seemed generally reactionary against anything more than mild deviation yet seemed to know in their bones they needed to embrace more as indicated by elevating maybe the two masters that were staked out on the frontier of tolerances to the top of the order in Windu and Yoda (and were fast tracking Kenobi).

    They probably needed major reforms centuries ago but went with making their bleeding edge and core their version of "centrists" which means the only directions really on the table are stagnating or regressing.
    They appear to have fiercely rejected anything beyond that limited horizon that was only as far away as their own Main Street even being aware of a diminishing ability to use the force and the cloud of the dark side was growing.

    Qui-Gon should have been a leading master rather than one just barely in grace, they forgot about their humanity (or whatever the appropriate equivalent for each particular being) and became far too disconnected from the galaxy they served to the point that within a mere two human generations they had significantly passed into legend and either were unaware of or handwaived ongoing slavery throughout out their time.

    I think maybe they were a victim of being too great once upon a time and that over encouraged the inclination to support the status quo exacerbated by the examples of the Sith from their ranks which all but completely stifled any serious reformation efforts and would seriously reject anything even resembling revolutionary change.

    Plus, the #1 thing they seemed to try to be on top of was identifying force sensitive individuals early and bringing them in to the fold before they would have any possibility of having their own ideas so there was almost no space for any new ones to sharpen or replace the old ones.

    So all factors combined they created an ideological, educational, and theological monopoly to a degree we on Earth really can't identify with but our most comparable examples indicate less a than stellar range of outcomes no matter how well intended in the beginning or how compelling the logic as the system was reinforced along the way.

    Other than the Sith there is a near absolute lack of competition of thought or deed internal or external.
    That system is going to fail eventually with anything less than benign omniscient beings as the ones running it.

    The Jedi were only benign and the omniscience was the more critical element as it is hard to accept maliciousness out of the all knowing but I throw it in just to cover the base.
     
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  5. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Rebel Official

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    Idk, Yoda has actually been pretty kill happy throughout Star Wars
     
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  6. Olivia Kenobi

    Olivia Kenobi Rebel Commander

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    hmm... Yes, but he also realized what was happening, even if he didn't do anything about it. That has to at least count for something.
     
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  7. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Rebel General

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    Agreed
     
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  8. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi Commander

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    Here's a post I wrote from two years ago -

    Let's admit it here - Order 66 was darn near flawless strategy by Palpatine. I'm not sure if there was anything the Jedi could have done that would have prevented their destruction. But here's a list of Jedi failings that, if the Jedi would have been a little wiser, could have been fixed before Palpatine exploited them and ascended to the Emperor's throne.

    • Don't be afraid of Anakin Skywalker. You tell him you sense fear in him yet you're the guys afraid to train him. Anakin misses his mother, and although someone else put the words in his mouth, he probably was afraid to lose her. So buy her from Watto, give her a modest home in a safe system and let Anakin be at peace, knowing she's much better off in her new life because of him than she would have been back on Tattooine. It's the right and the moral thing to do. Instead you chose to disqualify him because he's concerned about her, a slave woman with no influence on a planet controlled by a criminal syndicate. If you won't free a slave then what makes you different than the Sith?
    • Leave the Jedi Temple. The opulence and extravagance borders on the obscene. You're supposed to be unattached to possessions, but ask a homeless Clone War refugee how it looks when the guardians of peace and justice live in a freakin' palace. When Palpatine declares the Jedi to be enemies of the state the common folk won't rush to your defense - they'll probably think About time those rich snobs got what's coming to them!
    • It's all about the Force, guys. Not the dogma, but the Force. Qui-Gon was the only Jedi who, when forced to choose between following the Force and following the will of the Jedi Council, didn't even hesitate. Somehow you've become so self important in your own minds that you think obedience to the Jedi Council is higher or better than obedience to the Force. Spoiler: It's gonna bite you in the ass in Episode III.
    • Yoda, when Anakin comes to you with premonitions of pain and suffering of someone close to him, and tells you he won't let those visions come to pass, pay attention. He doesn't need (and won't listen to) a lecture about not mourning or missing those who die. Give the kid some real help, like Jedi are supposed to do. Offer a Jedi healer or a medical droid or a bacta tank or a security detail or ANYTHING! Don't tell him to quit caring about the pain and suffering of someone close to him, or to rejoice in her becoming one with the Force.
    • Do not, under any circumstances ever, EVER say "The Jedi Council will have to take control of the Senate to ensure a peaceful transition." You DON'T have the authority to take control of the freely elected, representative government. You cannot replace elected officials you don't like with ones you do like. That's the electorate's job. Because as soon as you try to replace democracy with Jedi-ocracy you're no different than the Sith. Wait, actually you're worse. The Sith Lord was legally elected.
    • Maybe you should ask yourselves exactly why thousands of systems are siding with the Separatists. I know you've been guardians of the Republic for a long, long time, but if millions of people don't want to be in the Republic anymore maybe you should, idk, ask them why? Ask them what needs to change for them to want to stay. Because when you make a police state to keep the Republic from losing so many systems, you're encouraging even more systems to go, because who wants to live in a police state?
    • When your only tools are lightsabers and starfighters, every problem you see looks like it needs to be cut in half or blasted to bits. Try building some PR cred with non-violence. Build something up instead of knocking something else down. Get the people on your side. Spoiler: You're gonna wish you had in Episode III.
    • In the end the Jedi Knights weren't too different from the clones they commanded. Both were raised from children to be warriors, to meet every problem with violence, to obey orders. Neither was allowed to fall in love, have a family, live a normal life. Luke told Rey the Jedi Council trained Anakin to be a killer - and he was right. When that killer started taking orders from the other side you guys were screwed. Why didn't you train him to be a healer instead? I know the whole mystical warrior vibe is sexy, but seriously, wouldn't the Galaxy be a better place with fewer mystical warriors and more Force doctors? Could Anakin have kept the ones he loved from dying if the Jedi had let him learn that, instead? We'll never know. The only thing he knew how to do was use a lightsaber. That didn't help his mother in the Tuskin Raider camp.
    So the Jedi fell. They were perfectly maneuvered into Order 66 but they'd already lost their way before then. They saw themselves as the kingmakers, the real power behind the throne. They'd already lost their way.
     
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  9. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Rebel General

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    Great explanation
     
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  10. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    My views on this topic had somewhat changed over the years. The prequels made me angry when I was younger, so I tended to conflate that with my view on the Jedi. I blamed the Jedi for many things they were not to be blamed for. So, here it is, maybe I'll write more later.

    Jedi were good AND flawed, victims of Palpatine's scheming and finally genocide.

    I can't believe that for generations there were no big problems in the galaxy for the Jedi to tackle. They were all resolved successfully. But suddenly Jedi lose all the cred they built for centuries. Palpatine is the difference. He made them scapegoats.

    Sure, their dogmatic beliefs made it easier for him to use them and use those beliefs against them, but their use of the Force, their vision was directly clouded by the Dark Side. We can talk about individual Jedi who truly lost their way (Pong Krell comes to mind), but as an organization, as a culture they were victims as much of the rest of the galaxy. We can watch with god's eye and speak about what they could have done differently to change theirs and galaxy's destiny, but you know what they say about hindsight. Anything they could have done is connected to the political power they effectively don't have and any respect they held was systematically destroyed by Palpatine.

    So the answer to the question is yes AND no. Yes, only because of the circumstances which were manipulated in a way that they had to lose their way and their dogma made it easier. If there was no Sith/Palpatine working in the shadows and they faced only ordinary, human (or alien, but you know what I mean) evil, I don't believe that would have been the case.

    If I have to use the power of hindsight and say what they could have done differently to change their fate: they should have never attached themselves to the political system that is Republic (or any other) and made their own seat in the center of power of that system. Every political system is flawed and crises only exacerbate those flaws. Every political system is corrupt to smaller or larger degree and if you are part of it, you can escape that corruption and/or hypocrisy. Jedi should have had several smaller temples throughout the galaxy and allied themselves with people on the case to case basis.

    Sorry, there is no way for me to vote in this pole. As I said, I might come back to add some things later.
     
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  11. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Back when I went to the theaters for TPM, this was my largest bummer.
    I walked out smiling because I had a great time, and it was a fun film, but I did have "Aw man, oh well" moments, and the second biggest one was that I had always imagined the Jedi of old as being more a monastic group in stone buildings intermixed with technology and symbols, variously powered by infusing the Force through the structure. That they weren't centralized or in some galactic central seating, but sought out for advice and guidance, and called upon by those of the secular world, and typically only answered the call of the helpless.

    I had imagined them as an ascetic group who prized relics which the Force focused into and objects of past Jedi for similar reasons.

    Basically, I thought of them as more Eastern Orthodoxy like. That was the vibe Obi and Yoda gave off of the old world in my mind.

    So seeing TPM and the Jedi all just chilling around a Seattle Space Needle on steroids in a city covered in Moebius designs galore somewhat made me a bit bummed because I had already seen this priests of old robes in a Moebius world in The 5th Element- this was just prettier, bigger, and more shiny, and because it meant that I wasn't going to ever see the Jedi I understood them to be.

    This isn't a big problem. This happens a lot. It just means I have ideas for my own crap if I want.
    I just have to correct my angle of view on the identity of the subject in the art, and I'm good to go.
    But it was a bummer and I would enjoy a Jedi scattered about more monastically, indeed.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #31 Jayson, Aug 9, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  12. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    And people like to give Rian Johnson a hard time for ‘subverting expectations’ :D
     
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  13. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel General

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    Technically Lucas has subverted expectations, too. Leia is your sister, when it was clearly not. Vader tossing the Emperor into the pit despite saying that there is no conflict. The thing is, aside from the map being purposefully left by Luke in The Force Awakens visual dictionary being retconned into not happening or R2 unexpectedly being given the map, I don't think that Rian subverted expectations. Not even Rey, to be honest, aside from Palpatine moves with the lightsaber. It was left open-ended. If anything, most of the events in TLJ is set-up prior to it happening, even Kylo betraying Snoke is visually set-up with his attempt to take Snoke's life and his glares at the Pretorian guards.

    The Jedi- remember- were the Knights of the Old Republic- the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. They weren't hermits- Yoda is an instructor, not a Jedi. The Jedi could be taught under these instructors.
     
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  14. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Ha ha ha, well yeah, man. That was kinda my point :)
    To quote the Mad Hatter: “Don't let's be silly!” It was a pretty well defined quality of his episode. This statement sums it up rather succinctly: “This is not going to go the way you think.”

    It starts off with what, under normal circumstances, would be considered a classic demonstration of heroism: the Rebels stealing a victory from the clutches of defeat – against all odds, destroying the dreadnaught. However, the narrative paints this as an avoidable tragedy. NOT heroic, but the regretful reflection of poor leadership. Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    Then we get Luke’s casual saber toss. The end of TFA presented this exchange as almost holy. Reverential, religious. Old man Luke drops it like a deadbeat dad would a child-support order. Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    Then we get a master/apprentice relationship where the student is in the right and the teacher is in the wrong. A total reversal from ESB. It’s actually the MASTER who has to ‘unlearn what he’s learned’ this time around. Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    Then we get an overly convoluted scheme centering around our good guys infiltrating the enemy base, in disguise, with a ticking clock, and enacting a Hail Mary pass that – wait a second, FAILS?! In fact, they’d have been better off not doing anything at all? Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    Then we get this ‘bad boy with a heart of gold’ Han/Lando type analogue, who – wait a tick, truly sells our heroes out? He doesn’t have some crisis of conscience? He just takes his money and leaves? Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    The we get, who ostensibly seems to be, the big bad of the entire trilogy killed at the end of the second act in the second episode? Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    So, we get an evil apprentice, overthrowing his dastardly master, in order to save our faithful hero. But wait, he DIDN’T turn good? He actually had selfish, vial intentions that whole time and is still the bad guy? Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    Then we get Finn, dead set on sacrificing himself for the greater good, the way three other characters had previously in that very movie, discover that his supposed heroic gesture was actually meaningless and had to be rescued? Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from . . . well, THIS Star Wars.

    Finally, the climactic lightsaber duel we get in the film, between the wayward student and his remorseful mentor, isn’t actually a duel at all? It was just a hoax? A ruse meant to achieve nothing beyond diversion? Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    From start to finish, Rian Johnson was very much interested in taking the conventions and tropes of the series, that we know and anticipate, and turn them on their heads. To do what we, the audience, didn’t expect.

    It’s distinctly similar to how George handled the Jedi in the PT. With those of us who grew up on the OT, our only point of reference for their characterization was Obi-Wan, Yoda, and (to a lesser extent) Luke. They were sagely, wizened, contemplative, recluses. That’s, more or less, what we had expected to see with the prequels. But, you know, more organized.

    Turns out, no, they were far more judgmental, closed minded, and rigidly structured than we ever guessed. The demeanor we saw in the OT wasn’t the status quo. It was the result of two decades of regret – sitting in isolation, reflecting on what went wrong and striving to be better in the present. George doesn’t get enough credit there, I don’t think. It's brilliant.
     
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  15. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel General

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    To quote the Mad Hatter: “Don't let's be silly!” It was a pretty well defined quality of his episode. This statement sums it up rather succinctly: “This is not going to go the way you think.”

    When Luke left Leia in Return of the Jedi, he left thinking that he could try to turn Vader. Initially, it did not work, and to be fair, it was also stupid of Luke to think that believing in his father could change him, because Luke felt "good" in him. So, it did not go the way that he thought as well.

    It starts off with what, under normal circumstances, would be considered a classic demonstration of heroism: the Rebels stealing a victory from the clutches of defeat – against all odds, destroying the dreadnaught. However, the narrative paints this as an avoidable tragedy. NOT heroic, but the regretful reflection of poor leadership. Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    It's never been mentioned if there's been much of a response to the rebels in Star Wars besides the "many Bothans died to give us this information" from Mon Mothma in Return of the Jedi. However, they've all been shown (especially Biggs) to have horrific deaths- the first pilot who tried to make the Death Star run, Biggs, and Dack. The gruesome deaths presents their deaths as tragedy, but the absence of a reaction in A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi undercuts the tragedy significantly. Nevertheless, I don't think that their deaths are viewed as heroic, or we'd see medals presented to the dead or a plaque being erected.

    Mark Hamill once mentioned that turning off his navi-computer was a response to Biggs dying, which would make his death seem tragic.

    It's additionally The Empire Strikes Back. The Last Jedi is a ripoff of it.

    http://m.byrnerobotics.com/forum/printer_friendly_posts.asp?TID=26301

    The listed discussion above discusses how the intro in A New Hope was counter-acted by TESB (the promised freedom was not put into effect in TESB). Also, the destruction of the Death Star did not permit the systems to be emboldened to take on the Empire. They left the rebels to basically fend for themselves.

    Now is The Empire Strikes Back subverting expectations? Not necessarily, it just assumes that the rebels were wrong in assuming that the rest of the galaxy would be immediately be free, since the empire retaliated by doubling down on finding the rebels and sending out their imperial dreadnaughts.

    Then we get Luke’s casual saber toss. The end of TFA presented this exchange as almost holy. Reverential, religious. Old man Luke drops it like a deadbeat dad would a child-support order. Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    In The Force Awakens, Rey handling out the lightsaber is also seen as a call for help. The tension is to see if Luke will accept or not, or see what his reaction will be, essentially. It does not mean to be treated as reverential, although many (including myself) have viewed it as such.

    As for treating lightsabers poorly... The Empire Strikes Back accomplished this. Han Solo rips open the stomach of a smelly Taun-Taun with one. Also, Luke looses his lightsaber at the end of The Empire Strikes Back... he doesn't go back for it.

    It's the prequel trilogy, which exhibits an obligatory shot of the lightsaber being knocked out of one's hand or falling, which has conditioned Star Wars fans to even care about lightsabers.

    For some reason too, Lucas decided (in The Making of Return of the Jedi) that constructing a lightsaber meant Luke finally becoming a man when, to be fair, a lot of his decisions in TESB were more mature and responsible than in ROTJ. Also, Vader praises Luke that his skills are complete with a construction of a new lightsaber. No, it does not mean that.

    So, a lightsaber is an elegant weapon, but is not so unimportant as to be lost or used dishonorably to save one's life, according to TESB. It's a weapon after all.

    Then we get a master/apprentice relationship where the student is in the right and the teacher is in the wrong. A total reversal from ESB. It’s actually the MASTER who has to ‘unlearn what he’s learned’ this time around. Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    Well, in my case, TESB Luke was in the right and TESB Yoda was in the wrong. Luke was RIGHT in trying to save his friends; he just wasn't ready for it. Morally, he still did the right thing, as Vader, at some point could have killed his friends or imprisoned them if Luke had waited long enough.

    Honestly, a lot of "unlearning" that Luke has to do, though not all of it, is actually rather bad advice from Yoda. A few things Yoda is right about- "not being afraid", "using his prior knowledge"- it saves him during the fight, and "being at peace" when choosing to light or dark side- which Luke does with the offer from Vader. Also, having faith in doing things and in a higher power. Everything else is really, really bad advice.

    Yoda's stubborn and exhibits a negative mindset in TESB, placing his hope in "the other" at the end of the film, despite Luke promising Yoda to return. It seems unikely that Yoda would even want to unlearn what he's learned.

    Then we get an overly convoluted scheme centering around our good guys infiltrating the enemy base, in disguise, with a ticking clock, and enacting a Hail Mary pass that – wait a second, FAILS?! In fact, they’d have been better off not doing anything at all? Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    Then we get this ‘bad boy with a heart of gold’ Han/Lando type analogue, who – wait a tick, truly sells our heroes out? He doesn’t have some crisis of conscience? He just takes his money and leaves? Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    Actually, Lando exhibits a survivalist mentality, which is revealed in the TESB novelization and in the TESB comics 1980. No, I am not making that up. The TESB comics lists this survivalist mentality as preventing Lando Even in the film, Lando is reluctant to turn back (with good reason) when Leia knows where Luke is and wants to find him.

    The we get, who ostensibly seems to be, the big bad of the entire trilogy killed at the end of the second act in the second episode? Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    No, but it's what TESB Vader WOULD have accomplished in TESB or asap. "Foreseen "Our destruction"? That means you too, right? Oh, yeah man, I'm gonna convince Luke then to join me and you're toast, pal."

    And whether the Clive Revill/Ian Emperor hybrid would have kicked the bucket at the end if there was a third film, I donno.

    So, we get an evil apprentice, overthrowing his dastardly master, in order to save our faithful hero. But wait, he DIDN’T turn good? He actually had selfish, vial intentions that whole time and is still the bad guy? Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    From TESB Vader and even from ROTJ Vader in the earliest drafts, Vader wouldn't have turned good at all. He was always partially good with evil. (hello? hello...). (and technically ROTJ Luke says that he sensed good in Vader, so Vader has be more good?).

    So, you've only been conditioned because of ROTJ, even though it doesn't make sense with ROTJ. I can find evidence from Lucas (The Making of ROTJ) that it was a plot twist to create a surprise at the end of the film, even though it was completely obvious at the end of Empire.

    Ignore ROTJ, and you ignore the conditioning.

    Then we get Finn, dead set on sacrificing himself for the greater good, the way three other characters had previously in that very movie, discover that his supposed heroic gesture was actually meaningless and had to be rescued? Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from . . . well, THIS Star Wars.

    Fair point, although Luke leaving to save his friends was viewed as a bad thing from Yoda and Obi-wan, as they were scared if Luke would die since they believed that he was one of their last hopes (doesn't make sense either, but okay.). Also, Yoda and Obi-wan didn't want Luke learning the truth about Vader yet.

    Finally, the climactic lightsaber duel we get in the film, between the wayward student and his remorseful mentor, isn’t actually a duel at all? It was just a hoax? A ruse meant to achieve nothing beyond diversion? Hey, that’s not what I’ve been conditioned to expect from Star Wars!

    It's a reference to the Obi-wan vs. Vader duel in ANH. That duel wasn't much of one either, and it serves the distract Vader from the group and to help the group through Obi-wan becoming a force ghost.

    I mean, was Obi-wan vs. Vader an actual duel? Is it a distraction? Was Obi-wan going to actually kill Vader or give up his life?

    From start to finish, Rian Johnson was very much interested in taking the conventions and tropes of the series, that we know and anticipate, and turn them on their heads. To do what we, the audience, didn’t expect.

    Mostly Rian just went back to Star Wars' roots and ripped off The Empire Strikes Back, actually creating some sort of conclusion to TESB in a spiritual successor/sequel.

    It’s distinctly similar to how George handled the Jedi in the PT. With those of us who grew up on the OT, our only point of reference for their characterization was Obi-Wan, Yoda, and (to a lesser extent) Luke. They were sagely, wizened, contemplative, recluses. That’s, more or less, what we had expected to see with the prequels. But, you know, more organized.

    Only really Obi-wan in ANH was wise and sagely. In The Empire Strikes Back and in Return of the Jedi, their motives and advice become more questionable. "You see, what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."

    (Also, ROTJ Luke's wisdom, for the most part, was crap, personally. His judgment as a Jedi in ANH and TESB was far better.).

    Turns out, no, they were far more judgmental, closed minded, and rigidly structured than we ever guessed. The demeanor we saw in the OT wasn’t the status quo. It was the result of two decades of regret – sitting in isolation, reflecting on what went wrong and striving to be better in the present. George doesn’t get enough credit there, I don’t think. It's brilliant.

    Okay, it's possible that was his intent. Are there any interviews where George discusses that he purposefully made the Jedi to be judgmental and not the "guardians of peace and justice"?
     
    #35 The Birdwatcher, Aug 9, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  16. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
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    But what actually could he have done at this point?

    I pretty much a gree with your whole list except for this one. The error happened earlier. At this point what he does is pretty much the only thing he could do (well he could listen a bit better but do we really want to see a full length therapy on screen), help him cope with the situation and tell him that visions are unreliable at best (I wonder what they teach them in school)


    The fact that we see in the other shows (and to some extend in TLJ) that there are jedi temples all over the galaxy makes me believe that what you envisioned was true for at least some time, maybe before the Jedi became too attached to the Republic (despite teaching that attachment isn't good)
     
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  17. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    This is probably the only scene from the PT that I legitimately like. It’s the only one I feel actually lands completely with what it was trying to do. Anakin, so desperate for guidance, approaches the Jedi about a dilemma involving his secret relationship. He needs to be vulnerable yet guarded in that scene and I think Hayden sells that pretty well.

    Yoda though addresses the matter entirely from his own perspective, without the appropriate empathy for his audience. What he’s offering is good advice, but in the absolute worst way possible for the state that Anakin is in. He simply isn’t in the right mindset to be receptive to what Yoda is speaking to and the green guy is totally oblivious to the fact that he’s only pushing him further.

    It’s such a tight rope to walk. To dangle the plausibility of avoiding the tragedy we know is coming by showing how seemingly slight decisions in judgement could have changed everything – making it all the more tragic. Both characters behave entirely true to their personalities and the result is equally inline with the story and organic to the scene. Couple that with the visual que of the window treatment casting Anakin in bands of ‘dark’ and ‘light’, symbolizing the conflict inside him, and you have one dandy of a sequence. Thumbs up from me.

    I don’t often speak very highly of the prequels. Thought I’d take this opportunity to give a little shine :)
     
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