SPECULATION What has me concerned about this movie

I share all of these concerns and am grateful you have voiced them.

Unanswered questions can make for great speculations and interesting theories, but we were never at a loss for that to begin with in Star Wars.

Perhaps some of the storytellers in charge feel the fanbase will "figure it out" and/or not-so-serious fans won't mind so much or perhaps even noticed if certain plotlines and characters trail off without definition.

Well, Boba Fett didn't turn out so bad in retrospect, but that's mostly because mystique is his thing (which does make me wonder about an Anthology film about him), aside from him showing some fortitude in Vader's presence.

While The Force Awakens was clearly engineered, from a storytelling perspective, to generate heightened anticipations and pure excitement for the next installment, there looms potential dangers wherever there's an excess of questions left in any narrative, especially where such matters demand and deserve lengthy exposition (which we might never receive due to the expectations and pacing of modern cinematic practices).

This is where bringing in more characters, locations, and issues only compound the situation and can get in the way of a well-told story.

The storytellers and the director already have enough on their plates with matters left over from The Force Awakens to address, and they can only pause to explain so much before the next plot-complication is due to arise, leaving us only with a partial sense.

I enjoy how so many stories do have interpretive capacities and leave room for speculation and theories, but when too much is left undecided, the story risks being criticized for its incompleteness and indecisiveness.

Episode VIII must be masterfully written to make the most judicial use of the rich material already presented in VII.

The last thing fans should be expected to do is to walk out of theaters December 2017 with even more questions.

The penultimate thing fans should be expected to do is supplement the movies with novels, comics, etc. (even though this inevitably occurs, even retroactively, in a saga such as this).

There can be skillful plot development without undue reliance on deliberate mysteries and delayed disclosures. Let's hope the storytellers remember that.

JediMasterRobert

 

I think fans need to be careful with their expectations. Fans might have questions which they want, but may not necessarily need answered.
It's not like the original trilogy answered everything.
How did Leia come to be in possession of the Death Star Plans?
Who is Emperor Palpatine, and how did he come to power?
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side?
How did Luke and Leia's mother die?

None of these questions were answered in the original trilogy. People had to wait more than 15 years for some of these, and some questions still remain unanswered.

So what questions do Episodes VIII and IX really need to answer?

 

I completly agree with you odmichael and I too share many of your concerns. For me, TFA was to much of an OT copy for my taste and I too wonder how the future movies may or may not have any surprises in store for us. What emotion could we have at all if Rey turns out to be Luke's daughter? I would be surprised if she turned out to be Snoke's daughter but Luke's? Same goes for Kylo Ren. I really hope beyond hope that Kylo turns into a greater evil than Vader ever was and that at the end of the saga he never repents and Rey has to take him down. This would make Kylo's story unique and not just a copy/paste of Vaders tale. Finn might be Lando's son? Who doesn't expect that? I really hope that there are many twists and turns in the future movies cause I really don't see the impact that the OT and even the PT had in these new movies. I haven't lost my hope since JJ is finally out of the picture but I'm still keeping my fingers crossed just in case.

 

TFA was only a little bit more of an ANH copy as TPM was.
A "nobody" kid on desert planet begins journey on path to becoming Jedi? Check.
Old mentor character killed by villain? Check.
Space battle to save a planet? Check.


The only two things which push TFA into ANH remake territory are the droid carrying vital information plot (which is played out better in TFA), and the superweapon (which is also better). The rest of it is mostly excessive aesthetic drawbacks, i.e. Neo-Empire, Neo-Rebellion, TIE Fighters, X-wings, Millennium Falcon, etc,.
If you replaced the trade federation with some sort of pre-empire, complete with stormtroopers, AT-ATs/AT-STs, TIE fighters, and a baby Death Star, and swapped the gungan/naboo army for rebels and X-wings, and the queen's ship for the Millennium Falcon, would people have complained about TPM being a remake of ANH?

You're overlooking a big, important piece of information here.If Rey is Luke's daughter, who is her mother?
Plenty of opportunity for surprise there.

That would make for a pretty bad trilogy. Luke was a good hero because he had compassion, i.e strength of character.. Rey becomes a hero because she's physically strong? That would make it the most boring, generic action movie trilogy ever... even worse than the prequels.
Kylo Ren doesn't need to be a greater evil than Vader, because we've already got Snoke who is shaping up to be a greater evil than Palpatine.

I don't expect it... because it's just too ridiculously simple. I expect him to be no one important whatsoever. Maybe he'll find out that the First Order killed his family...?

J.J. isn't out of the picture. He's executive producer on the next two. He's even collaborated with Rian Johnson for Episode VIII.

 

This is exactly where I see the problem of more questions than answers coming down to a limited budget of screen time.

An average of two and a half hours seems like a lot of time, but those minutes quickly tick by even in fast-paced stories.

I feel Luke Skywalker should have substantial screen time in Episode VIII, not simply to balance Han Solo's presence in Episode VII, but for the character I consider most central to Star Wars to have his long overdue return, exposition, further development, and necessary influence on the state of the events.

At first it angered me somewhat to hear the ultimate reason the storytellers had made Luke Skywalker the goal (i.e. the so-called "McGuffin") of the movie and not a primary character was their inability to figure out how to not have him dominate the narrative every time he appeared in a scene. I felt that smacked of utter incompetence and a total mismanagement of and disservice to such an integral character.

Now that I have seen The Force Awakens several times, I am accepting of that narrative choice based on the hope that Luke's return in Episode VIII will be handled with great care and not as a token presence, a cameo, or a distant secondary character.

From the opening crawl, we are made to understand Luke Skywalker's absence is responsible for the rise of the First Order and the subsequent events in The Force Awakens: "In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire."

Now, if the first film really was about finding him, the second film must be primarily or majorly about him, or else the prolonged anticipation The Force Awakens has mustered for this character was really all for nothing. This is to be a continuation of one of the greatest epics ever conceived, so any potential careless or arbitrary handling of the subject matter in this overall storyline is a concern.

Which brings us back to the budgetary issue of time: will Luke's scenes need to be limited or even later deleted simply to make room for more Poe and Finn scenes, for example? The storytellers in charge must not fall into the false choice of wondering whether they want to appeal more now to the older / more established fanbase familiar with the Original Trilogy or the newer fans who are not necessarily all that emotionally invested in Luke Skywalker.

I believe the storytellers can in fact find the right balance if they forego temptations of pure fan service, avoid the insertion of unnecessary characters and scenes, and put the greater story yearning to be told front and center, providing more answers than questions in Episode VIII.

We should not be made to wait until December 2019 for Episode IX to begin to understand key aspects of this story and its central characters.

JediMasterRobert

 

You guys are setting yourselves up to be disappointed.

 

Did you ever hear of the tragedy of Emperor Abrams the Angry? It is an old Cantina legend . . .

He became angry about rumors that Luke Skywalker had little screen time in TFA because it conflicted with his demands for the film. His anger consumed him and everything he posted. He flew into paroxyms of rage and it eventually led to his demise.

Can one learn how not to force one's own expectations onto a movie? Not from an angry emperor!

 

There is such truth in this. Such is the case with anticipation: always looking to the horizon.

Before seeing The Force Awakens, I avoided all Star Wars-related websites so as to not have any sense of what to expect and to not encounter any spoilers.

Having "prepared" myself for The Force Awakens by watching the Prequel and Original Trilogies again in order, I had a refreshed sense of where the story left off and was eager to learn where it resumed, how, and why.

The last time we saw Luke Skywalker, he was on Endor, and the prospect of peace had once again returned to the galaxy, where throughout there were celebrations.

Episode VII's opening crawl then set that all aside, displacing Luke and setting up the greatest anticipation of finding him.

Now we all have been set up by the film itself, as Episode VII has left us with nothing less than great expectations literally on the edge of a cliff.

Hopeful we must be, patient. In the will of the Force we must trust.

JediMasterRobert

 

That's exactly the point though... people didn't ask them, because they didn't feel they were important.
Suddenly, everything thinks every little thing is important.

Is the story of how Maz Kanata came to posses the Skywalker lightsaber important to Rey's journey?
Probably not, but fans seem to think it is.
Is Snoke's back story important to Rey's journey?
Probably not, but fans seem to think it is.

TFA is as much of a direct sequel to ROTJ, as The Lord of the Rings is a direct sequel to the Hobbit, i.e. not very much at all.

The sequel trilogy is intended to be a standalone trilogy. Connections back to the PT and OT are mostly easter eggs.

People need to understand that the sequel trilogy is Rey's story. It's not "the new adventures of Luke Skywalker."

That's exactly right.
Disney could have taken the easy way out and set the new trilogy further into the future, where Han, Luke, and Leia are long since gone... but they didn't. They attempted the monumental task to introducing audiences to a bunch of brand new characters, while simultaneously reintroducing characters that haven't been seen on film for 30 years. 2 and a half hours to do all that is not an easy thing to do.

Even J.J. Abrams was disappointed when he came into learn that Luke wouldn't have a big role in the story, especially after he became involved because Kathleen Kennedy asked him the question "who is Luke Skywalker?"

There was barely enough time for the characters they had. If J.J. Abrams had rejected the benched Luke Skywalker, how would he have been able to tell a story that did all of the characterc (both old and new), justice?

 

Well, friend, while you were keeping yourself 'pure'...
https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet.com/index.php?threads/character-archetypes.2335/
https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet.com/index.php?threads/making-star-wars-full-synopsis.2856/

I don't know why a great number my fellow star wars fans keep doing this to themselves, especially after 1999..

Look, I want to share with you something. This was me on February 20th 2015 after reading the MSW bombshell that Luke Skywalker was in only one scene:
The bombshell: http://makingstarwars.net/2015/02/s...e-spoilers-about-luke-skywalkers-involvement/
https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....ulation-thread-part-1.1833/page-16#post-50722
https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....ulation-thread-part-1.1833/page-20#post-50844
Even Sunday I was still in denial:
https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....ulation-thread-part-1.1833/page-27#post-51205
And.. this was me on that Monday morning, after thinking about it all weekend and realizing it was true:
https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....rs-and-speculation-thread-part-1.1833/page-37
And I followed that up with:
https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....ulation-thread-part-1.1833/page-39#post-51729
Even in May I was like:
https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....tar-wars-full-synopsis.2856/page-9#post-90146
And yes, I was probably the very first person to attack TFA's plot using the now nauseatingly overused "plot summary" tactic.
https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....ar-wars-full-synopsis.2856/page-12#post-90608

Now I am known as one of the big TFA defenders around here.
https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....the-force-awakens-meh.7609/page-5#post-213554
How did this happen?
Well, because I found all this stuff out ahead of time, I was able to make peace with this movie. I was able to embrace this film for what it is as opposed to my own ridiculous expectations. It was not overnight; it took some time. Months. And during that time I had to deal with the whole Ventress thing... But by December I was there.
https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet.com/index.php?threads/are-you-nervous-yet.7361/page-2#post-196873

Nothing I'm saying here will change yours or anyone's opinion on TFA or the ST for that matter. But hopefully it will lead you to at least question what the true advantage of staying spoiler-free really is when LFL decides to make the FT.

 

Not the "new" but the "continued" story of Luke Skywalker, as I view it. Also worth pointing out Anakin Skywalker's character arc spanned six films.

I had no expectation The Force Awakens was to be anything other than a continuation of the Star Wars universe as it existed after Return of the Jedi.

I thought it was reasonable to expect Luke Skywalker to have more lines and screen time than C-3PO, though.

But on to VIII.

It merely prolongs the matter: moving Luke's exposition and character development from VII to VIII.

Doing it later rather than sooner means that Luke's character arc now has to compete with the aforementioned limited screen time budget.

Poe was not even supposed to be a major character at first, but then that was revised to give him more screen time.

I know from experience there are ways of writing stories to include many overlapping major character arcs effectively. It becomes difficult when you're designing a story in the presence of multiple writers in a mostly decisions-by-committee manner (and then to have executives and producers step in and influence the rewrites).

I really do look forward to seeing however they pull this off, and I am completely hopeful they can succeed.

JediMasterRobert

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2016 ---

Thank you for providing all of those links!

I can see you prepared in a much different way, and there's a compelling argument to be made about knowing in advance.

I had wanted my experience and interpretation of the film to be based primarily and exclusively on what I was watching, without any outside influence. I'm like this about most movies, and I have learned long ago to keep low-to-no expectations. As the saying goes, "great expectations, great letdowns."

My point in bringing up Luke in my reply to this thread is to allude to the difficulty, with respect to time, of bringing back an unmistakeably major character such as Luke in Episode VIII while so many other things will be happening. While I never anticipated or had reason to believe this to be "his" trilogy, I do hope the information flows more freely in the next film for him and all other pivotal characters.

Yet another way I regard the Sequel Trilogy is through pure gratitude, the same as I felt for the Prequels when they appeared: I am simply delighted they exist at all so there can be some continuation of a story I enjoy and actually care about.

JediMasterRobert

 

People need to understand that the sequel trilogy is Rey's story.


Just Rey? I thought this new trilogy was supposed to be about Finn and Poe, as well. If it's just about Rey, then they need to do something about her character. I don't want to spend the next few years watching a movie trilogy about a character who is basically a Mary Sue.

 

*yawn* I'm sorry, were we supposed to be offended by that?

 

He fell into a reactor core of his own heart or something...right? Anyhow, the more I've been thinking about this movie, the more I've realized how crazy we became over TFA which makes sense but this is a continuation of a trilogy and unless we debate about he martial progression of things to make a smart hypothesis about what's happening, then we are all being set up for disappointments .

 

Fair enough, although I would point out that Anakin didn't really see a whole lot of development over the OT, particularly in ANH. The OT is still, very much Luke's journey.

Luke's involvement in the sequel trilogy will be somewhere between Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Vader in the OT.

But now they have a bunch of characters that audiences are all familiar with, and Han Solo is out of the way.
Luke doesn't have as much to compete with now.

And assuming they follow the Star Wars trilogy formula... a Dr Manhattan type Luke character may be necessary to prevent Rey from being completely killed at the end of VIII where she will ultimately fail.

It's Rey's story in the same way that the OT was Luke's story.

Well if they stick to the established Star Wars formula... Episode VIII will end in a defeat for Rey.

Except through the establishment of the Lucasfilm story group, Star Wars is moving towards a cross media type thing...
Certain questions they can (and will) leave for books and TV shows. It all comes down to whether or not it is important to Rey's story.

That's the problem that the sequel trilogy will face... which is probably why Disney felt the need to drop the number in the marketing.
Disney really are treating it like a soft reboot. It's still a "continuation" but it's almost like starting from scratch.

Would it?
Rey (and the audience) already know that Luke started training Jedi and that it continued for some time... we don't need anything else up to that point (unless there are important implications of those events).
The only answers we really need are:
1. What went wrong?
2. Why did he really leave? Why has he stayed away?
3. Was he really searching for the first Jedi Temple? Why?

These things don't need to be complicated.
They could all be answered in a single exchange with the character.

Obviously, more questions will arise if it turns out that Rey is his daughter, but we don't need to worry about that yet.