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SPECULATION What if Anakin's story was shifted forward, and the suited Darth Vader was the villain in episode 3?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Grand Admiral Kraum, Sep 23, 2015.

  1. Grand Admiral Kraum

    Grand Admiral Kraum Force Sensitive

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    Maclunkey i'm good. What do you think?
     
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  2. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    This is what I always expected from the PT before it came out. But that requires the PT be the story of Obi-Wan's failure rather than Anakin's fall. Which might have been a better trilogy, but went out the window as soon as TPM established this as Anakin's story. You can't have the protagonist of a blockbuster trilogy be a Jedi slaughtering villain in the third film.

    Your only options would be to have Vader be some sort of anti-hero protagonist, which doesn't fit with Star Wars and is difficult considering the level of atrocities he was committing with no real humanizing motivation to allow you to come along for the ride. Or option 2, you switch focus after 2/3rds of a trilogy and make Obi-Wan the sole protagonist with Vader as antagonist. That would make a cool movie, but the sudden jarring shift in focus damages the overall saga. It feels a little to gimmicky.

    If I had my way, Anakin should have been the antagonist from the beginning. Starting in a Episode 1 palpatine sort of way where you aren't really sure if he's truly evil or not and diving down into the turn in Episode 2. And finally the confrontation and climax with the Jedi in Episode 3. That's how I imagined it before the PT existed anyway.
     
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  3. Nijuni

    Nijuni Clone

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    I think what's interesting about how Lucas made the prelogy in the end, is that it shows us that evil can come from everybody. It was daring to start the story with an innocent 9 year old Anakin, but in the end it serves the message of the saga: even the best of us can fall, just like Lucifer in christian myths, Lancelot in Arthurian legends, or even Sauron in Tolkien's lore.
    It's just my opinion, but I think focusing the story on Obi Wan and making Anakin the antagonist from the start would have been too cliché, too black and white. Plus, the parallels between Anakin's and Luke's journey is to me what really unifies the saga. It shows us the importance of choice, and not just "you are born evil, and therefore would do evil all your life". Anakin's journey is tragic because he could have been the biggest good of all, but ultimately failed, not because he was doomed from the start.
    Anyway, we'll never know what could have been, but I'm one those who thinks the prelogy added more depth to an already epic saga.
     
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  4. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    I don't know. To me the tragic fall is more played out than the struggle of the mentor? As you said it has a long history through countless human cultures. A film about Obi-Wan's failures as a teacher. His blindness to Anakin's tendencies towards aggression. His struggle to pull him back. And eventually his complex and emotional decision to fight against him? To me that sounds like fertile ground for original stories.

    I don't disagree with you that the tragic fall can work. I don't think it was very well executed on all fronts to make it really hit as hard as it should, but overall I don't dislike the story of the PT. My only point was that it has to be one or the other. you can't start down the tragic fall story line and then switch gears in the third film.
     
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  5. Julian

    Julian Clone

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    I think Episode 1 you have Obi-Wan begin to train two apprentices. Episode 2 you have them get captured and leave their fates uncertain. Episode 3, Vader is on the scene but we don't know which apprentice he is, but it is clear Obi-Wan knows in their final confrontation. Only in Episode 5 do we understand the truth.
     
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  6. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    IMHO, the most logical progression of the Anakin-to-Darth-Vader arc would be to have Anakin finally fall to the Dark Side as the escalating climax problem of SW3 Act 2, and then have him spend the final act (Act 3) as Darth Vader doing Darth Vader stuff with Obi-Wan and other hero characters runnig fo their lives. The PT would then end on a VERY low note that sets up 30 years of darkness before a new hope glimmers on the horizon in SW4.
     
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  7. Jimba Fett

    Jimba Fett Rebelscum

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    Yes cut out 9 year old little Anny and start the journey of Anakin as a 19 year old. I would like to see a more gradual fall from grace and see his journey to the darkside from half waythrough ep 1 onwards through the trilogy. I don't necessarily need to see vader all the way through episode 3 but certainly more than in the last 10 minutes of the movie.
     
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  8. Alpine Newt

    Alpine Newt Clone Commander

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    I don't think he would need to be fully suited up at the beginning of ep III, however I do think he should have openly gone to the dark side by then.

    Ep I - Compassionate idealist like Luke. Just started training, maybe 14 years old. Beginning of war with separatists.
    Ep II - Sees too many bad things during war, starts losing his compassion.
    Ep II - Openly leading Clone Troopers against republic, hunting Jedi.

    Obi Wan's line "He's more machine than man now" in Ep IV always made me think that Vader had got that way slowly over time, like using the dark side had corrupted his body somehow.

    Well even if they had done it this way and it sucked at least it would have saved Jake Lloyd from a lot of 'fan' abuse.
     
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  9. HAL'sgal

    HAL'sgal Force Sensitive

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    I can almost accomplish this by pretending Episode I does not exist. There is literally nothing in that first movie that one needs to know for the final two to make sense. It would be neat to see more of Darth Vader in all his terrible glory, though.
     
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  10. Jimba Fett

    Jimba Fett Rebelscum

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    Yes I agree. TPM was a big mistake from it's inception. The only good thing apart from some of the music is Darth Maul. What a huge waste of a potentially amazing character he was. I know in the clone wars, books and comics he was resurrected but he should have been present throughout the prequel trilogy. As a villain I much prefer him to Count Dooku and General Grevious.
     
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  11. Alpine Newt

    Alpine Newt Clone Commander

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    I must admit that I've not watched TPM since it's theatrical release, even though I have it in the prequel box set. I just don't think it's worth watching as it doesn't really add anything to the Saga. That's why I'll watch the films 'machete' order.
    Apologies to anyone that loves TPM. I'm cool with that, it's all subjective as John Campea is so fond of saying. :)
     
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  12. Grand Admiral Kraum

    Grand Admiral Kraum Force Sensitive

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    I'm happy with my childhood memories of the movie, I find every time I watch it just gets worse..

    I'm not throwing it under the bus though, the end duel is brilliant and I like that we saw Tatooine again.
     
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  13. HothLeia

    HothLeia Rebel General

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    I agree with the concept (not the execution) of Anakin becoming Vader at the end of the prequel trilogy. I do think the prequels should have started with Anakin as a young adult, maybe before or with the AotC. The Phantom Menace just seems somewhat more "detached" from the other films. (And I like it a little more than Attack of the Clones.) It just seems disconnected and kind of just "there" as exposition in some ways...like a preface to the real story. TPM could have easily been condensed into a prologue or flashback if they really needed to show Anakin's origins. And I strongly agree with more Maul in all 3 films. What a great visual of a villain. He could have joined the ranks of the OT baddies.

    I wouldn't want a movie about suited Vader (as the rise and fall works as a theme for me) but I would have LOVED more fall! TPM had its moments but it didn't serve any purpose other than being a glorified prologue, to reintroduce/introduce characters, and set the stage. The best parts of the PT were the interactions/dynamics of padawan and master. That should have always been the focus. More Obi-wan and Anakin.

    Starting the movie later would have allowed more time for all the GOOD stuff the prequels had to offer=more Maul, more Obiwan, more Jedi, more Windu, more of Vader's downfall and Obiwan's failure.
     
  14. duckface

    duckface Rebel Official

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    I love this idea. Just imagine if the Clone Wars had started in Episode I, Anakin had turned in Episode II, and Episode III was about the Jedi Purge and the formation of the rebel alliance. For some reason I'd always pictured a scene where Darth Vader orders the destruction of a rebel ship, knowing full well that on board was his wife, Padme. She manages to get her children off-board via escape pod but chooses to go down with her crew.

    Granted, you lose some of the poignancy of Anakin turning to the Dark Side to save his wife before unwittingly killing her, but I've always felt that the two should have been at serious odds before she died.
     
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  15. WhySoSidious

    WhySoSidious Rebel General

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    This is what I had always expected! Before The Phantom Menace came out, I expected a succession of Dark Side force users (before I knew the word "Sith"... Let me get back to that in a moment) that would lead to the emperor turning Anakin, and Vader being suited up all through Episode 3, undoing all the good he would have done in the first two episodes. That word "Sith". I think I first saw it on the Darth Vader card for the Decipher Star Wars collectible card game in 1997. "Dark Lord of the Sith.". I asked a friend more informed in Star Wars lore what that meant, and he had described " a people of a religion, Sith, that worshipped Darth Vader." Funny, now that sounds a whole lot like the Knights of Ren. Are the Knights of Ren based on the original concept of the Sith?
     
  16. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Lucas would have hired a hit squad on you. Maybe some ninja assassins. On motorcycles.
     
  17. NiceTanoYou

    NiceTanoYou Clone Commander

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    The story line doesn't need to be shifted. There just needed to be 4 episodes: a tetralogy instead of a trilogy.
     
  18. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    The only time Anakin has ever come close to being the main villain was in "The Empire Strikes Back". And even that was nearly subverted by Palpatine's brief appearance in that film.

    Why is it so important for Anakin to be the main villain . . . period? Is this desire to paint the characters with some one-note morality? None of them are that simple . . . not even the Original Trilogy. Whatever chance Lucas had in portraying Anakin as the main villain died when he was revealed as Luke's father in the 1980 movie.



    So . . . you would prefer if we watch Anakin be some one-note villain throughout "Revenge of the Sith", hunting down Jedis? No thanks! If you want such a character, perhaps you'll be lucky if Lucasfilm and Disney allow Kylo Ren to morph in that manner.
     
  19. Vader_the_White

    Vader_the_White Rebel General

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    First off, I agree that The Phantom Menace was a waste of a film since it didn't contribute anything to the plot (though if we bumped Anakin's age and had the Invasion of Naboo start the Clone Wars, it would have been okay...after more rewrites to fix dialogue, pacing, and other problems...and had a director who could direct actors). I also want to say that I honestly have been giving it some thought, and I don't think it would really work trying to maintain the reveal from Empire. In order for it to work, we have to add a character whose sole purpose is to be a red herring for a film that came out 19-25 years prior to the prequels. And in order to maintain the red herring, Darth Scapegoat needs to betray and seemingly murder Anakin and then get severely injured. Then, we would need to see a suited Vader and Palpatine have this vague exchange:
    VADER: "Is he dead?"
    PALPATINE: "Your former friend? Yes, his injuries where too much to save him."
    It's just overcomplicates the story and steals from what could be an emotional moment. Sometimes, prequels ruin plot twists if you watch in chronological order. And you just need to accept it.
    Now, on to the main topic:
    I personally dislike the idea of Episode III being dedicated to an Anakin who has completely fallen to the Dark Side, especially a suited Vader. Partially since the idea of a trilogy showing the fall of a noble hero is a great one. Even more so on the fact that Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader could have mirrored the transformation of the Republic into the Empire.
    Here is an idea I've been working on since not long after Episode VII was announced:

    Episode I would feature an older Anakin (about Luke's age in A New Hope). The main plot involves the start of the Clone Wars, during which he meets Obi-Wan, becomes a hero (but not preventing the war, just making the first battle a victory), and Obi-Wan says he will train him as a Jedi.

    Episode II would cut forward a few years. Anakin has just been knighted. The Republic is doing badly and is scared about the future. Stuff happens, mostly tragic, and by the end, Anakin swears he will bring order to the galaxy, whatever the cost.

    Episode III would cut forward another year or two. Anakin has gotten more brutal as time as gone on. He wants to end this war. The movie can open in a similar way as it actually does. Anakin duels Maul (oh yeah, I forget to mention he wasn't killed off* in my version of Episode I), who has been the public leader of the Separatists the whole war and beats him. Badly. To the point that Maul's throat has been crushed. Not enough to kill him, however, just enough to knock out his ability to speak. Palpatine walks up and reveals that he is a Sith Lord, but lies and says that Maul went rogue when he created this war. He offers Anakin the power he needs to bring order to the galaxy. Just kill Maul, become his apprentice, and learn about the Dark Side of the Force. Anakin does just that. Palpatine says that the Jedi will not see things eye to eye with the Sith and would rebel, plunging the galaxy into another bloody, violent, and destructive war. Anakin agrees and the two of them together start to move the Jedi into the places they need to be for their extermination.

    And how does this mirror the transformation of the Republic? Simple: through the horrors of war and the desire for peace, both Anakin and the Republic become willing to do ANYTHING to maintain order. They become brutal and tyrannical. And this actually ties with OT Vader better than the existing prequels. Vader is very much Lawful Evil. He doesn't seem overly cruel nor psychopathic. And don't forget what he actually says to Luke: "We can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." Plus, this actually does give a heroic motivation to his actions (wanting to bring peace), though his actions (murder, genocide, abolished rights, etc) are what, in the end, makes him evil.
    Also, this saves one of the better concepts of the prequels: the duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan and the destruction of a friendship (though I don't think it was executed well**).

    *Yes, I know Maul survives to be present in The Clone Wars and Rebels. But as far as the films are concerned, he might as well have been killed off. Also, Revenge of the Sith came out nearly seven years before it was revealed Maul was alive (Revenge of the Sith - 19 May 2005, "Brothers" - 9 March 2012), so when the film was put into production, Maul was considered dead.
    **It's hard for me to care about a destroyed friendship when they barely interacted in The Phantom Menace (two brief exchanges), mostly were antagonistic towards each other in Attack of the Clones during the few times they shared scenes, and were once again separated for most of Revenge of the Sith! If the friendship blossomed in Episode I, it would have been fine, but the fact they barely interacted (and most of the interaction was negative towards each other) hurts the drama of the duel!
     
    #19 Vader_the_White, Apr 12, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2016
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  20. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    ROTS should have been about Darth Vader being the hero of the Empire--not the villain.
    it would have been pretty dark, but that was the story we should have gotten, i think.

    otherwise, it should have been the tragedy of Obi-Wan and not Vader.

    either could have worked.

    and I agree with @Vader_the_White that starting with child Anakin kicked the whole thing off on the wrong note. much as i liked Qui-Gon Jinn, i would have preferred that it had just been Anakin and Obi-Wan from the beginning.
     
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