1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

WHAT IS THE THIRD LESSON?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Ammianus Marcellinus, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. Ammianus Marcellinus

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    So what is Luke's third lesson? I think I've managed to find it and its definitely the most important one. Is it the idea that fighting directly is not always the right option. That sometimes the sabre needs to be cast away. That one should trust in the force instead.

    Obi Wan and Yoda did it in ROTS
    Obi Wan did it in A New Hope
    Luke didn't do it in ESB, despite Yoda and Obi Wan's advice and teachings. it had destructive consequences
    Luke did it in ROTJ
    Luke did it in TLJ: but in the end he finds a third way. He appears to be taking on "the entire first order with a lasersword", even though he's still on the island. He trusts the force, becomes a legend.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  2. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2016
    Posts:
    3,384
    Likes Received:
    15,619
    Trophy Points:
    144,707
    Credits:
    15,356
    Ratings:
    +20,519 / 72 / -32
    It's a deleted scene that got removed because by the time the lesson happened it was very clear that Luke is grumpy and doesn't want to have anything to do with Rey. One of its parts was the shot of Rey running alongside the beach with her lightsaber on that was seen in the first teaser.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  3. Ammianus Marcellinus

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I know, they cut it because it showed Luke too much like a jerk. But since it is cut, its to the audience to interpret the third lesson.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Posts:
    771
    Likes Received:
    1,526
    Trophy Points:
    6,317
    Credits:
    2,744
    Ratings:
    +2,668 / 14 / -1
    Until I heard about the deleted scene, I thought
    Luke's final act on Crait and his ultimate sacrifice
    for the cause could be taken as the third lesson:

    taking full ownership/responsibility for failure, standing for what you believe in, giving hope to the subjugated, defying evil up until the end, and being at peace with one's self after great introspection, "following one's bliss" (as Joseph Campbell would say), acting with pure and mindful purpose, and achieving the Jedi ideal of selflessness, using his great power not for attack but for defense, knowledge, justice, to preserve the prospect of hope, by inspiring others through such grand thoughts and actions, against any eventual return of darkness, ultimately to help secure a better future for others in a most memorable way.

    Since deleted scenes often "don't count" or are not necessarily canon, and based on the initial description of the scene in question, I would prefer, personally, to maintain this thinking, as it redeems Luke and preserves his legend in such an epic and meaningful manner.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Ammianus Marcellinus

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    And remember how even the deleted third lesson played into this theme. Luke explains Rey that fighting directly is not always the best option and might aggreviated the situation you wish to save. The caretaker village appears to be on fire. Rey rushes to the rescue, despite Luke prior warnings. She finds out that Chewie and the caretakers are having a feast. The caretakers are scared by her sudden arrival. Its a mirror to the destructive consequences of Luke's actions in act III of ESB. Where Luke leaves Dagobah despite Obi Wan and Yoda's warnings.

    Even though a third lesson appears in the deleted scene. The purpose and wisdom of the lesson of Luke's appearance in the last act of The Last Jedi remains the same.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  6. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Posts:
    3,256
    Likes Received:
    8,567
    Trophy Points:
    87,567
    Credits:
    13,258
    Ratings:
    +10,963 / 197 / -29
    I liked your post and maybe you are right.

    But I also like to think that the 3rd lesson
    was not mencioned to make it obvious that Rey's training was incomplete. A nod to Luke's training with Yoda in TESB. Luke left Dagobah to save his friends in the cloud city, he didnt listened Yoda. Rey left Ach to because she saw good in Kylo, and she didnt listen Luke as well. The arc is now complete.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Original Original x 1
  7. King Chewie

    King Chewie Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    67
    Likes Received:
    171
    Trophy Points:
    992
    Credits:
    830
    Ratings:
    +254 / 0 / -0
    I feel like they also deleted the third lesson because its message is the opposite of the message in TESB. The takeaway of the deleted third lesson was that Luke was not the hero needed at this time, and that Rey’s impulse desire to dive in and help is what the galaxy needed. This is obviously very different from the takeaway in TESB when Luke just dives in to help without thinking the matter through. It was just a bizarre, out of place scene in several ways...although I am curious what this party with Chewie and the caretakers looked like!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    It was cut from the movie according to RJ if I remember correctly. Guess we will have to wait for the extended edition.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2015
    Posts:
    4,583
    Likes Received:
    37,161
    Trophy Points:
    161,027
    Credits:
    36,756
    Ratings:
    +44,803 / 45 / -17
    I like your interpretation though my personal one would be closer to @JediMasterRobert's.

    But, I won't lie, I do wish to see that deleted TLJ scene, because more Hamill's grumpy Luke is always better. :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    2,163
    Likes Received:
    6,605
    Trophy Points:
    16,467
    Credits:
    8,703
    Ratings:
    +9,546 / 39 / -14
    :p

    [​IMG]


    On a more serious note. I prefer to take it as there just not being a third lesson.
    It's very fitting to the running theme of a Sartrean response to the Nietzschean interpretation of the Platonic ontology of the ideal vs actual.

    To summarize without essays, Plato says that there is the ideal and the actual, and that the ideal is never capable of being obtained, and only the actual is capable. Nietzsche, grossly paraphrasing, basically emo-goth mopes like Eeyore about this fact and demands to know how we find meaning if the ideal is not possible - "God is dead", Übermensch, et al - to which Sartre basically contains a response to all of this that, paraphrasing, we are all "condemned" to supply our own meaning which means that the value of the actual lies in our own imbuing of the actual with the meaning of the ideal and thus give the beauty of the actual upon the ideal.

    The ideal is repeatedly held up and then shattered in TLJ, then follows the existential crises of each character in the face of the ideal not being the actual, and then follows their way of coping with the actual by changing their perceptions of their core assumptions of the actualization of their motives.

    Everyone at the beginning believes that their ideal is attainable and everyone faces the brutality that not only is their ideal not attainable, but that the ideal can never be attained, but unlike Plato and more like Sartre post Nietzsche, find that in embracing the actual, they're able to find passion and purpose once again and take on things that scare them and make choices they were too scared (and hiding behind the "ideal" previously) to make before (e.g. Poe's reactions to danger originally were to jump into action with crazy plans because he couldn't stand sitting still in fear, so he idealized heroism as a defense).
    I've mentioned elsewhere that Kylo's arc is in reverse of everyone else, so his philosophic take is more like, well...fittingly enough I suppose...Hitler's take on Nietzsche sans-Sartre and goes from finding meaning through reaching for his ideal up until Snoke is killed and he is the supreme leader, which is part of his ideal, but things immediately start falling apart for his ideal because Rey won't join him, and that's when he goes Hitlerian in response because his response to the ideal not being possible is to force it to happen by the will to power. Which of course means that he, unlike everyone else, sees his world crumble all around him and he looses his control of his emotions more and more and becomes more chaotic and existentially frustrated as the story moves on.


    So, to bring this all back around to the three lessons.
    If the ideal is the classic three lessons of all holy text, and epics narratives of ancient literature, then the actual is like the boy's experience of searching for his answer from Mr. Owl. There won't literally be three as that is the ideal, but the actual is - in this case - two.

    It's very much like that scene from History of the World Part II.
    "I give you these 15 - *drops, breaks*
    Oh...
    10! 10 commandments!"

    The 3 lessons are, therefore, the following:
    1) The Jedi do not own goodness
    2) The Jedi history is one of failure


    Which, consequently, given the theme of the movie, means the third lesson is "3) The ideal is a lie we tell ourselves to avoid the truth".
    But this is never said, and it can't BE said because as soon as you actually say the third lesson in the story, you immediately negate the third lesson which is the story itself.

    In this way, the only way to obtain the ideal form of the third lesson into an actuality is to not have the third lesson become actualized as a lesson, but to let it lie as a void that all fall into and from which inherently the lesson is actualized, and therefore the ideal - not stated - is preserved mentally of the third lesson.
    This is like saying the only way you can get the perfect circle (Pi) is by not creating a circle, but instead letting nature take its course and by consequence Pi will eventually result on its own and therefore the ideal will have been implicitly expressed.


    It doesn't exactly need to be explained in this long-tooth way that I write, but that's how I loved the 3rd lesson when I saw the movie and saw it absent.
    I love the ontological beauty that it creates in its absence given the story's theme.

    Cheers!
    Jayson :)
     
    #10 Jayson, Dec 28, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
    • Like Like x 4
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  11. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Posts:
    669
    Likes Received:
    1,529
    Trophy Points:
    6,567
    Credits:
    2,675
    Ratings:
    +2,693 / 76 / -50
    With the deleted scene taken out, Rey leaves before he gets to the third lesson. Simple.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Oneforceonebalance

    Oneforceonebalance Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Posts:
    489
    Likes Received:
    1,272
    Trophy Points:
    6,117
    Credits:
    1,990
    Ratings:
    +1,666 / 79 / -54
    RJ did not care to edit the movie out so most important thing about Rey's training they edit it out how STUPID! I hope this guy never makes another star wars movie. Rey such a Mary Sue , that Rian was like the third lesson not even important to show the audience.
     
    • Pessimistic x 3
    • Original x 1
    • Clouded x 1
    • Trolling x 1
    • Dislike x 1
  13. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2014
    Posts:
    4,391
    Likes Received:
    5,585
    Trophy Points:
    16,317
    Credits:
    6,765
    Ratings:
    +9,458 / 246 / -104
    I just assumed no third lesson was Luke's second failure. Rey, Finn, Poe all failed twice before getting right. I just assumed Luke had the same structure.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Original Original x 1
  14. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Posts:
    4,552
    Likes Received:
    8,974
    Trophy Points:
    92,402
    Credits:
    12,243
    Ratings:
    +14,898 / 149 / -71
    The third lesson is seek for yourself.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Wise Wise x 1
    • Original Original x 1
  15. Master Jedi Qui-Gon Jinn

    Master Jedi Qui-Gon Jinn Clone Trooper

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2017
    Posts:
    96
    Likes Received:
    111
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Credits:
    675
    Ratings:
    +173 / 8 / -1
    Everyone must have missed the 3rd lesson... guess we'll have to watch the movie again.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  16. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    2,163
    Likes Received:
    6,605
    Trophy Points:
    16,467
    Credits:
    8,703
    Ratings:
    +9,546 / 39 / -14
    Some additional thoughts after having mulled my thoughts a bit more around on this (Star Wars geek-out time).

    1) As Benjamin Lewis stated, if we take the extreme face-value of the events, then Rey simply left before her training was completed.
    This works well, and regardless of how RJ had intended things, it works out pretty well to cut this part if you have to cut something because cutting the third lesson actually creates a connection between Rey's training and Luke's training. This means that, as it stands, both left their training prematurely to run off and save their friends from their entrapped demise which occurred through betrayal of the neutral character (Lando in ESB, and DJ in TLJ).

    2) I also now realize the answer to a question I've been picking at: where's the symmetrical counterpoint to Canto Bight? (I discuss the symmetry of the story in this thread.) The 3rd lesson was what appeared on the surface that needed intervention of justice, but actually didn't need it at all, and our character does try to correct the injustice because they can. Meanwhile Canto Bight appears to be paradise, but actually was an inhumane injustice that needed intervention, and our characters do not try to correct the injustice because they can't.

    3) This one's definitely not intended by RJ, but nevertheless it is present by consequence during reflection. Due to (2), my previous considerations in my previous post regarding the absence of the third lesson in regards to the idealism theme, and that the third lesson was cut from the story, the story is therefore consequently not the ideal form of the symmetrical story that was envisioned; it is the actual that is depreciated from the intended ideal. Fittingly, then, the absence of the counterpoint Canto Bight scene that is the third lesson, causes the story, as a meta-object, to actualize the third lesson through itself as a medium of art. The edit of the story becomes bound by the idealism vs actual theme it contains. Ironically, this would (again, this is most likely not intentional by RJ) mean that the edit-out causes the film as an actuality of the ideal to cause the ideal to be, since the ideal of the story is the narrative exploration of the failures of idealism and the value of actuality.

    Cheers!
    Jayson :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  17. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Posts:
    7,119
    Likes Received:
    10,295
    Trophy Points:
    144,192
    Credits:
    15,738
    Ratings:
    +19,243 / 799 / -292
    Yep. That’s what I thought too.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Oneforceonebalance

    Oneforceonebalance Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Posts:
    489
    Likes Received:
    1,272
    Trophy Points:
    6,117
    Credits:
    1,990
    Ratings:
    +1,666 / 79 / -54
    No you all got it wrong the third lesson Luke did not need to give it to her it was lesson on using the Light sabeir when Luke seen Rey on the clift training with the Lightsabeir he was amazed of her skills, that was the third lesson, which he did not need to teach her, and Yoda confirms this by telling Luke " Rey already attain it" the insight knowledge of the Jedi and their books is the meaning of this and saber skills. So Luke did not need to give her the third lesson.

    Just ask your self what main training Jedi need one of them is Light Sabeir skills. Rey already had that and Luke was amazed by her skills of it.
     
    • Original Original x 1
  19. Ammianus Marcellinus

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Yoda was referring to the books. I think its a translation mistake. They did they same with the Dutch subtitles. Yoda said: There is nothing in that library that the girl Rey does not already posess'. It was then translated in Dutch as follows. 'There is nothing in those books that Rey doesn't already carry inside her.' Its the wrong translation, and the person who made the subtitles didn't pay too much attention. I've heard the same of other TLJ subtitles in other languages.

    Though I do like your interpretation. Its original and haven't thought about it in that way :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Oneforceonebalance

    Oneforceonebalance Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Posts:
    489
    Likes Received:
    1,272
    Trophy Points:
    6,117
    Credits:
    1,990
    Ratings:
    +1,666 / 79 / -54
    I talking about in English, point Yoda said to Luke "that the girl already possessive " meaning the books and it can mean also the insight knowledge of the Jedi ways. He did not say book but book is included in that meaning. Also Luke witness Rey using the lightsaber so for sure every Jedi will teach his student to use a light sabeir and when he see Rey can use one his face tells it all. The third lesson was using the lightsaber.
     
Loading...

Share This Page