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What to do about eye rolling?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Sparafucile, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    Almost a year and a half after TLJ, and I feel things have calmed significantly.

    Still, people have opinions on it and the ST, and those opinions vary wildly depending who you're talking to.

    I don't see this as a problem per se, as people will have opinions and when a related subject comes up, statements will be made. The only issue I could potentially see is derailing threads.

    Ergo, this thread. I'm hoping we can have some healthy dialogue. I'm looking for suggestions on how we can play nice even if we may have a difference of opinion on a movie, trilogy/saga or anything associated with SW. My suggestion would be tolerance of statements of opinion. Whether or not someone loves or hates a product, unless they go into specifics, or allude to their opinion being of greater significance than their own personal, what's the point of calling them out (other than subtly telling them their opinion has no merit?).

    I understand the subject of TLJ is still a tender one, yet when new threads are created that have TLJ as part of the subject matter, I think for the foreseeable future, as a fandom we'll have to expect statements and opinions of the film on behalf of individuals will be made and we won't always agree, but we're not necessarily expected to.

    If someone wants to inform a thread on their love or hate of a movie as related to the subject matter, I think the better course would be to somewhat ignore it, or judge the statement on the related thread within the context of their overall opinion. I don't believe calling out the opinion serves any positive purpose however. An individuals opinion is their own, and it is one of the few things in life that we are entitled to.
     
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  2. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    This can be applied anywhere, but in general people as a whole need to learn how to reply to the message/content not the sender. I know I've been guilty of doing the latter from time to time. Also people in general need to stop going to the extremes. Things don't have to great or bad, its okay for something to be just average or in the middle. If people can come to the middle, it would make conversation more pleasant. I quote Obi-Wan "only a sith deals in absolute".

    I personally, defended TFA when it first came out and I had mixed feelings about TLJ (it wasn't bad nor good, just mediocre) but after more thought I really dislike TFA a lot more than TLJ. I like exposition and that's why I love PT so much because of the world building and exposition of various characters despite being executed poorly. The only reason why I give OT a pass in exposition is because of the context of the OT when it came out. I knew Star Wars was a pretty much a freak accident and George didn't have a clue that SW was going to be a big hit. Had he known he was going to make 3 movies, i'm sure he would of written the OT differently.

    I personally felt like TFA should of gave us more exposition. Give us the context of the state of the galaxy, make it known that the New Republic and The Resistance isn't one in the same, tell us how Snoke became the new emperor, etc. I felt like it was unfair for RJ and the TLJ to be forced to give us those answers when it should of been answered in TFA. From my observation, I feel like people are hard on TLJ because TFA was so empty of a film lore wise that they were looking for TLJ to fill in the void that TFA created. People are mad because TLJ either ignored it or didn't give us an satisfactory answer to the dozen mystery boxes that were in TFA (which would of been impossible to answer all of them). TFA "felt" like a SW movie but it lacked the internal guts of a SW movie. I think we need to wait and see how Episode 9 turns out to complete the story before we can make judgement about ST as a whole. Maybe TLJ seems odd now but maybe Episode 9 will make TLJ not so out of place?

    I personally was hoping to see Luke's Jedi Academy and see how his Jedi Academy was different than PT version but TFA robbed us that and instead decided to reset the Galaxy to the same sate as in ANH. That story point isn't a unrealistic expectation for a ST. I know we're 30 years too late to see him building his academy but we should of seen the final product at least before Kylo burned it down. That was my expectation of the ST and I figured that would of been a given. Sorry for the rant but that's how I feel about the ST right now.
     
    #2 deadmanwalkin009, Mar 18, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I think that a forum is useful for discussing opinions, and sometimes even for debating them, so I'm not sure I'd necessarily say that we should outright cease all acknowledgment of each others' opinions.

    But TLJ is such a tired point of debate. At this point, there's likely not a point that could be discussed that hasn't been done already ad nauseum.

    On top of that, both sides of the discussion have had plenty of representatives working in bad faith, and it's really worked to make the community a divided and toxic place at times.

    So, in this case, I'd agree. Discussions on TLJ's quality are boring and tired.
     
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  4. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Jedi General

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    I personally love the Sequel Trilogy so far, even more so recently. I admit that I sorta joined the anti-Force Awakens bandwagon for a time in 2016 and the divide in the fandom left me questioning my thoughts on The Last Jedi, but ultimately I’ve found that when I tune out the internet discourse, I do genuinely love both movies. Sure, they have their flaws, but I consider both of them to be as good as the Original Trilogy. And I know that not everybody agrees with me and I’m 100% okay with that. What I’m not okay with is when people from either side of the debate spread misinformation to support their argument. An example of this would be the BS claim that JJ Abrams/Rian Johnson/Kathleen Kennedy have stated that if you don’t like The Last Jedi, then you are sexist. This is not even close to what was actually said, but because some clickbait news sites did articles about it, this is the story that has spread on various parts of the internet. In my opinion, stuff like this has nothing to do with the quality of the movie, whether or not it’s true, but if one was going to use outside evidence in a debate or argument, they need to actually know what you’re talking about and have supporting evidence that is actually true.
     
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  5. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    the meaning of star wars.png

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  6. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I think the Trailer for TROS (I have to get used to typing Episode 9's initials), has sort of help move the debate of TLJ. There is ALOT to talk about regarding that trailer more than ANY SW trailer since 1977. The presence of Palpatine and the name of the movie are something that we have never seen in a Trailer as usually they hold something that big of a reveal for the movie. I say this because I haven't even thought of TLJ since that Trailer last week, as that Palpatine cackle has got my mind wondering if this is the best thing to happen to the ST or the worst thing. But it has me wondering, so the trailer did its job.
     
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  7. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    It's creating a LOT of expectations too... which I'll be curious to see how people react after they see the movie. It's definitely helped take the focus off of TLJ though, I agree.
     
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  8. daRinze

    daRinze Rebel Official

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    I can ensure you, today is 9 monthes before the film is released, and some choosen dudes on the internet already know the movie is crap, Palpatine return is nonsense, and the new TIE has been designed just to impress the audience.
    I want their second sight gift. I want to be as powerful as them : they can see in the future, they already know the script and some of them have already seen the movie! While I am here, alone, lost and as useful as a rat in a desert, wondering what this movie will be about :|
     
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  9. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    While I would like for all the people to get along and love everything, I am not seven years old or naive. And, while I love TLJ, I have absolutely no problem with people disliking it or outright hate it. That's their prerogative.

    However, what I couldn't stand a year and a half ago (but accepted because TLJ was fresh) and I still can stand (and can't accept any more) is that self-proclaimed haters find their way into EVERY Star Wars discussion, even when it has nothing to do with TLJ and sometimes even into discussions that has nothing to do with Star Wars. Also this:

    It's nice to say that we should ignore it. It really is. But, because we ignored it, the misinformation continued spreading. Some people still believe what was mentioned above, even on this site - I've seen it both here and in blog comments. And that didn't really help the fandom. At all.

    I have no solution. I know that for better or worse (I think for worse) I stopped talking about TLJ to people who dislike the movie (with few, very few exceptions), which means I stopped interacting with part of the fandom. If that's not sad, I don't know what is.

    But my well-being has improved so there is that.
     
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  10. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    Well in their defense, if they didn't like TFA (which I did like) and they hated TLJ (I'm guilty of that), then likely anything Disney/LFL tries to do at this point will likely not please them. It's hard to hope for something good when in your opinion everything has been bad. I'm glad I'm not in those shoes, because at least I enjoyed TFA and I can hope JJ will make an enjoyable movie focused less on the aspects of TLJ I didn't like and more on those things I did enjoy from TFA.

    I can see how it's annoying, but trust me, as someone who hates TLJ, it's likely equally annoying hearing people gush over TLJ when you find it lacking (to be polite). The point of the thread is to have people realize that people will say things that make you roll your eyes in frustration, disgust ect... but don't let that seep into the forums because it adds fuel to the fire. I'm not saying not having a discussion with someone who disagrees if it seems like you might have an actual conversation. Yet if someone is simply stating they did or didn't like TLJ, there' s no point calling them out on that fact. It's a fact that they obviously think has import to their coming statement, to take whatever they say with that grain of salt, if you will.

    I think we can agree that the media handled the whole TLJ debate badly, adding fuel to the fire more often than not. I agree with you that those at LFL had their words twisted, I think some also forgot at times that discretion is the better part of valor... meaning, they were baited by media and they hit the bait which didn't help matters. Especially when it's one sided.

    As for the effects ignoring certain things had (or if things were ignored, which I don't think they were, at least that was my experience), I think we were all bamboozled to some extent by the coverage who did attack those who hated the movie. Those who hated it by believing "their" explanations as to what LFL and company were saying, and those who loved it, accepted the same message because it helped their narrative "win" arguments. They worked on our tribal instincts and we allowed them to divide us, from SW fans, to haters and lovers of a single movie. Shame on us. I just hope we learned our lesson.

    I agree with you that sometimes avoiding people is the only solution. As for ignoring statements, I'm not saying if someone is saying something factually untrue, but if someone is merely stating I love or hate TLJ, that is factually true as it speaks to an individuals opinion of the movie. That statement could add clarity to what follows. As someone who dislikes TLJ, if someone opens up with their love of it, then it sheds a light on the angle to which their opinion is coming from... the reverse is true also (we know going in we're likely not to agree, but could be pleasantly surprised). When I started this thread, that's what I referring to as I had seen it on both sides a few times. We need to let people have their opinions, and as much as it may annoy to hear, having thick enough skin to let it slide I think would be the better part of valor.
     
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  11. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Ironically, I have to answer this accusation (this is the first time I have talked about TLJ since the trailer came out). lol

    In fairness, both sides are at fault in the matter as both sides provoked the other. Just go through the 'TLJ Hated thread' and you will see a lot of Pro-TLJ fans in there constantly posting. I would always ask them why they are in a 'hate thread' if they loved the film? So they were doing exactly what you were saying the Anti-Crowd was doing.

    Also, the Pro-TLJ side generalized the Anti-Crowd as Racist, Sexists, or 'You had your own story in your mind since 1983.' The biggest generalizaton is that many Anti-TLJ fans got criticized for theories about Rey's parents, Snoke, or Luke's hibernation (Remember RJ held up a shirt that said Your Snoke Theory Sucks?). Yet, if you look at the Episode 9 Trailer, it is deliberately LEADING to theories about Luke, The Emperor, Rey, etc. Even Kathleen Kennedy said the name of the movie 'doesn't answer anything' and 'asks a bunch of questions.' So she is essentially saying that fans can go wild with their theories. Yet we got criticized for doing the same thing between Episode 7 and 8?

    So both sides were at fault in the TLJ debate, but it just proves the movie was divisive (something the Pro-TLJ side would never admit), and that is what happens when it splits the debate.
     
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  12. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    Again, in fairness, everyone, on both sides, was trying to understand (and still is) how the divide started, what was its source and many of us were spitballing our anecdotal theories, most of which ended up leading to dead ends. We had "true fan" arguments on both sides, "older fans" theories, "general audience", "fair weather fans", "PT fans", "younger fans", ect... I don't think these theories were intended to be divisive, but if you fell in one of those categories you felt targeted at your assumed allegiance. Tribalism at its worse.

    RJ's famous "Your Snoke theories suck" was hilarious when I first saw it. To me it meant he had something amazing set up. Snoke's death was very surprising to me in the movie... probably one of my more positive take away's from TLJ was that subversion of expectation. Unfortunately it was warped over time into something I don't think RJ really meant. I came to dislike that subversion after realizing there was no longer a true villain for the last chapter of this trilogy. I can blame RJ for not planning that far, but I still don't believe his joke and poke at fans was intended to insult them, but him having fun because no one saw it coming, no one offered up Snoke's death as a theory for TLJ (that I recall). Admittedly, I wasn't on here as much (I was lurking) and theories were mostly limited to friends and family.

    Even the now more popular "expectations" theory I don't believe to be meant as an attack. It's human nature to try and understand why things happened the way they did. As in most cases, these things are multi-varied. There isn't a one answer fits all. That frustrates us because we want a simple answer to point to and avoid. The reality that we can agree on a premise and come to opposing conclusion with that same premise annoys us lol. It means either our logic or theirs is faulty (we tend to think our own is untouchable lol) and that leads us to questioning our own, finding it sound and then assuming the others is the problem. Instead, we should be able to rejoice in the diversity of the fandom.

    I've had a long discussion with many a TLJ lover, and I'll mention @Jayson by name, because one conversation almost a year ago with him is what calmed me and opened my eyes to the possibilities. TLJ didn't work for me, but when he went through his process, it made sense. I still didn't like TLJ, but I could see how someone could logically love that movie. It was annoying at first until I came to realize the tribalism is what drove that annoyance. Once I realized I was taking part in tribalism, I tried to separate myself (with varying degrees of success) and didn't jump to the defense of haters, or attack lovers. I started having discussions, trying to understand. I changed my motive to when I said I didn't agree, or it didn't work, it was for me... imo... which I started adding a lot to my posts. I stopped trying to convince others and instead started to enjoy the wide range of views. I find that more fascinating. I guess it depends what you're here for... to debate or to discuss. I'm here for both, but more of the latter. I don't believe I have all the answers, and I want to hear ideas that come from left field, even if I disagree with them.
     
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  13. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    This is one of the best things I've read.
    There is nothing better in Star Wars than hearing how you helped an understanding.

    I have a saying: A criticism points out everything wrong so that either the criticism becomes the focus, or what was seen loses value. A critique shows new ways to see what was already seen in a different way so that a second look has a new experience.

    A good critic should offer a critique; not criticism.

    Spread the love! <3 :D

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  14. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    This, to me, seems somewhat relevant in an abstract way.
    This is our world's Princess Leia. ;)

    the real princess leia.jpg

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  15. daRinze

    daRinze Rebel Official

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  16. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    Jane Goodall. She brought the world of apes to our awareness back in the day by doing things people thought insane, but was founded on principles of understanding and compassion.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Goodall

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  17. daRinze

    daRinze Rebel Official

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