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SPECULATION What was Obi-Wan and Yoda's Plan?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by nds0401, Nov 2, 2015.

  1. nds0401

    nds0401 Clone

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    We all know how ROTJ ended: Luke redeemed Vader and Vader killed Palpatine, but it seems that neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda thought Vader could be redeemed. So this begs the question, if Luke wasn't supposed to turn Vader back to the good side, then what did Obi-Wan and Yoda plan for him to do? What was their endgame? They kept mentioning that Luke had to fight Vader, but what about the Emperor? Was it Obi-Wan and Yoda's plan for Luke to kill Vader, then kill Palpatine? They must have realized that Luke was no match for Palpatine, much less Palpatine PLUS Vader. I assume Yoda and Obi-Wan had come up with some plan over the twenty plus years between Episodes III and VI, so what could that plan have been? Could they have been stupid enough to train Luke and then just throw him in front of both Sith Lords and say "okay, good luck" and simply hope that somehow the outcome would be a good one?
     
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  2. Darth NRM

    Darth NRM Rebelscum

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    Personally i consider the StarWars Prequel Trilogy the most utterly excuse to capitalize some BIG BUUUUUUUUUUUCKS!

    Yes they did sell a lot of toy and games, when on to make some comic TVShows (most of the kids tv shows are better than the movies prequels), but the sequels story is subpair when compared with the original trilogy and you will notice plenty of loop holes betwen them. He will have to await a couple of years for a REBOOT that will consider the Prequel Movies non cannon and tell a different story happening before Original Starwars, hopping the Sequel Movies be any good for now or the ones that get "Legeng Treatment" will be the Original Trilogy Movies.
     
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  3. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    Welcome to the Cantina, you made quite an entry with such a tough nut to crack but your questions are warranted, IMHO.

    LUKE Then I am a Jedi?

    YODA (shakes his head)
    Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then,
    only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.


    It seems the confrontation and a re-encounter is inevitable. It's not a question of "if" but rather "where" and "when".

    YODA Luke...Luke...Do not...Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor,
    or suffer your father's fate, you will. Luke, when gone am I
    (cough),
    the last of the Jedi will you be. Luke, the Force runs strong in your
    family. Pass on what you have learned, Luke...
    (with great effort)
    There is...another...Sky...Sky...walker.


    Ouch. It now also appears that the confrontation with the Emperor is somewhat inevitable, too. Or does Yoda suggest that Luke trains Leia first, before he seeks any of the aforementioned encounters? It doesn't seem likely that Luke will be able to train Leia once he's dead, unless Yoda and Ben are prepared to turn him into a Force ghost. Maybe they hope that Luke will kill Vader and worry about the Emperor next?

    And why tell him about Leia until it's deliberate because both foresee that Vader will find out and Luke will be compelled to stop him at all cost, rather than to let Leia get involved?

    I'd like to believe that both Yoda and Ben had expected Luke to confront Vader on the forest moon of Endor, first. But already here, Luke put his own plan into action, appealing to his father to run away with him:

    LUKE Because...there is good in him. I've felt it. He won't turn me over to
    the Emperor. I can save him. I can turn him back to the good side. I
    have to try.


    (Try?!? Do or do not!!!)

    LUKE It is the name of your true self. You've only forgotten. I know there
    is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That is
    why you couldn't destroy me.
    That's why you won't bring me to your
    Emperor now.


    It appears that Luke should have received more and intense training regarding the Jedi mind trick. It won't work on his father and his plan fails. He must now both confront his father and the Emperor, but I don't think that's what Yoda and Ben had originally planned and hoped for.
     
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  4. aderosa32

    aderosa32 Clone Commander

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    You must also remember, Luke left his original training early. He was not ready to face Vader the first time yet he left anyways. Then when he returns to Dagobah to finish his training, it is too late for Yoda. I assume the original plan was to prepare him to defeat Vader and Palpatine. But Luke's connection to his friends changed everything.
     
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  5. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    I believe that there's a 3-5 year gap between ESB and ROTJ...he could have easily been trained further in that time.
     
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  6. aderosa32

    aderosa32 Clone Commander

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    I have heard it was only a a couple of months between ESB and ROTJ. Even so, he did not return to Dagobah until ROTJ. If he was trained, by who? I think he was able to expand on what he had already learned, practiced and ultimately got better. But there was only one other living Jedi and he was on Dagobah.
     
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  7. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    That's as far as we know, though. Don't you think a force ghost could have trained Luke as well? Obi-Wan DID tell Vader that if he was to be struck down, that he would become even more powerful...
     
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  8. aderosa32

    aderosa32 Clone Commander

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    I absolutely think that is possible. But, it is never explained. He just shows up better than he was in ESB. But as to what the OP was asking, I think the original plan was for Obi-Wan and Yoda to train him to be able to take down Vader and Palpatine. That plan included one, probably both of them becoming one with the force and teaching him more than any other Jedi could have possibly known. But his decision to save his friends at the Cloud City altered everything.

    I have to imagine after ROTJ, he receives the training he was originally supposed to get. But I suppose the new canon will explain that.
     
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  9. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    I don't see us learning anything about it until the end of 2016/2017.
     
  10. NiceTanoYou

    NiceTanoYou Clone Commander

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    In earlier drafts of RotJ, Obi-Wan returns in the flesh during Luke's duel with Vader and sort of reveals his plan.

    Obi-Wan says to the Emperor, "I have foreseen your death at the hands of Skywalker."

    Later the Emperor says, "Obi-Wan foresaw my destruction at your hands, young Skywalker, but it seems his vision was clouded…Perhaps there is still another Skywalker. Why can I not see, could the netherworld have influenced my perception? Another Skywalker…your father!"

    So, Lucas was playing around with a different prophecy in the 80's: that a member of the Skywalker bloodline would destroy the Emperor (Luke, Leia, Anakin).

    Anyway, even though it's not entirely flushed out, I get the impression that Obi-Wan told Yoda about the vision he'd had, and that they decided to roll the dice and train Luke. One of the Skywalker kids needed to become a Jedi so that the emperor would want to turn them. That's the only way they could gain access to the throne room. I guess Obi-Wan thought that if Luke could just get near the emperor and confront him, the cosmic force would will him to victory, even if he lacked the ability to do so -- which is exactly what happened until Lucas concocted that absurd "chosen one" prophecy.

    Though, Obi-Wan and Yoda definitely took a chance with Luke. Leia could've easily been the one to fulfill the prophecy. I suppose if Luke died, they would've tried to get her to Dagobah. Of course, it was Anakin who fulfilled the prophecy, so it ended up not mattering.

    So, I don't see it as a plot hole that Yoda never prepared Luke to fight the emperor. It was always a cosmic force/prophecy thing for the two Jedi masters.
     
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  11. TheFettMan

    TheFettMan Rebel Official

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    My view is that Yoda is somehow aware or has a distinct connection to Darth Plaguis.
    Yoda knows he can not sustain eternal life unlike DP. He can only maintain his spirit as a force ghost.
    This SCARES Yoda because he knows the Skywalker line which was created to act as tool to eliminate Sheev Palpatine when needed(either with Anakin or Luke).
    Yoda KNEW who Luke was even before the events of TESB. He deliberately told Obi-Wan not to explain to Luke who his real father was or who was his real family. This deleted scene is in ROTJ(1983).
    I think when Luke claims to be ready then leaves Yoda on Dagobagh, Yoda knows the real threat is not Vader or Sheev Palpatine but Darth Plaguis!
    Yoda sent Luke in the Magic Tree so he becomes aware of the sad truth. He's destined to be Skywalker and must face Darth Plaguis at some point.
     
  12. PrincessLeiaCB3

    PrincessLeiaCB3 The Princess that was Promised
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    No less than 6 months, no more than a year.
     
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  13. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    I believe Obi-Wan (and possibly Yoda) would've been perfectly fine with Luke just killing Vader:
    ----
    Luke: I can't kill my own father.

    Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.
    ----
    This exchange makes it sound like Obi-Wan dislikes Luke's refusal to kill Vader.

    In fact, I think this may be part of the reason they didn't tell Luke the truth - they knew he wouldn't want to kill his own father. (It's not the only reason.)

    On the other hand, I'm not sure if Yoda and Obi-Wan exactly had a plan at all - they had pretty much already failed and fled into exile. Once you reach that point, your plan is basically, "Run!"
     
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  14. singlern05

    singlern05 Rebel Official

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    From Empire: "Stopped they must be on this all depends Only a fully-trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor." The plan was for Luke to conquer them both. Obviously Yoda and Obi-Wan did not foresee how exactly everything would unfold. No one can. "Always in motion the future is." But by the time of ROTJ their feelings told them that Luke needed to face Vader one more time. What would happen and how would it play out? Obviously they made some bad assumptions about that (i.e., that Luke should kill his own father). The Jedi are not perfect by any means. But Luke did fight Vader one more time and it ultimately resulted in the deaths of him and the Emperor. So Yoda and Obi Wan's feelings were true, from a certain point of view.
     
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  15. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    I heard that the gap between the two movies is only a year.



    It's a point of view that I find rather hard to accept. Personally, I think that Yoda and Obi-Wan were somewhat desperate in putting all of their eggs in one basket - namely Luke. I don't think either of them ever considered that Anakin would still play a role in the Sith's downfall.
     
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  16. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Of course they would have been fine with it because Obi-Wan "killed" anakin on Mustafar already years before.
     
  17. Vader_the_White

    Vader_the_White Rebel General

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    I don't think the plan was ever to have Luke face Vader and the Emperor at the exact same time. That's just how it happened.
    You mean Vader "killed" Anakin years before.
     
  18. Darth Sidious

    Darth Sidious Rebel Official

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    Lucas to Leigh Brackett: "Maybe we should set up some kind of levels of achievement. Ben can say that Luke is now a level 2 and Vader is a 4; 'I was a 6 and the Emperor is a 6, and he's on his way to becoming a 10, which will be a force so powerful in the universe that nothing can stop him. You must stop the Emperor before he achieves the level 10.' Luke has to destroy the Emperor. It does give us a time frame for the future--not only do they have to restore the Republic, but they also have to worry about the Emperor. We're really beginning to set up that situation."
     
  19. JV-24601

    JV-24601 Rebel Official

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    The official timeline puts RotJ a year after ESB.
     
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  20. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    I am so glad that this was never mentioned or used in the movies. Using numbers to determine the skill of a Jedi? Ugh.




    Anakin and Vader have always been one and the same . . . even before he became a Sith Lord. The good in him never died. Nor did it ever killed the evil within him. The evil within him never died. Nor did it ever killed the good within him. Both good and evil had always existed within Anakin. The same could be said for all of the characters. I suspect that the problem with Obi-Wan (I don't know about Yoda) is that deep down, he never really understood this.
     
    #20 CTrent29, Jun 17, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
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