What was the point of the Ski Speeders?

This.

I think it's difficult to argue the character who has grown up in the FO, and quite literally has been used as the Subject Matter Expert for all things First Order, is now suddenly less an authority on the effectiveness of his attack, than Poe; a man who is seeing the Battering Ram Canon for the first time in his life, and didn't even know what it was until Finn explained it.

If Finn believes he can take it out, there's just as much reason to believe him now as when he told Rey to fly the Falcon low when they attempted to escape Jakku. He's the expert.

 

Poe has already learned that "dead heroes" isn't going to help much. The main priority was surviving. As @The Hero With No Fear pointed out, even if you want to believe Finn had a chance to blow up the cannon, the First Order had them cornered. Blowing up the cannon didn't really solve anything. Finn's death would be pointless. Poe has learned from his past.

 

Ok, I can see that, they were cornered and his death would only delay things (assuming he was successful and destroyed the canon).

But what's the alternative? No one thought Rey was going to find a wall made of rubble that she could force lift out of the way, when R2 stated definitely that there was no way out.

I think Finn was thinking practically. He didn't want to be captured by the FO, as he'd be viewed as a traitor and would likely get particularly nasty treatment. He was fighting a losing cause, and he did what people do when fighting a losing cause, take as many down with you as you can. In essence, his death could have been a symbol as a martyr for the cause (don't ask me how that would become common knowledge to the cause if you can't answer how Luke's sacrifice becomes the same lol).

Right or wrong, I'm not sure. It comes down to that age old question... glory or long life. Long life kind of sucks if it's spent being tortured. Beyond that, if he can take out a few hundred, a few thousand by destroying that canon and it damaging/killing many of the enemy around him, it increases the odds his friends can fend off the attack.

 

Honestly, it kind of reminds me of the "Ride out with me" scene in The Two Towers.

I guess Aragorn had reason enough to at least hope Gandalf would return at that point, but he didn't know for sure (just as Poe could've reasonably enough expected that his distraction could potentially buy time for the Resistance to contact their allies, even if all hope seemed lost).

If I'm being totally honest, I think The Two Towers handled this "cornered beast" scene a lot better. However, while I think there's a lot of value in discussing stuff like this, I think it's a little bit disingenuous to not even entertain reasonable enough solutions just because you want a plot hole where there's a contrivance at most.

 

Luke Skywalker was a figure of myth and legend known to everyone - even nobody scavengers from nowhere. The people that knew he died would have talked about that. Word would have spread pretty quick. He wasn’t just ‘some guy’. He was already a recognized symbol of hope for the entire galaxy. That’s why Leia wanted him back so bad. That's why Snoke wanted him gone so bad.

 

Sacrifice and its worth is actually a really common theme in TLJ.

First Poe's squad, then Finn, and finally Luke, as we've noted. If we look at execution/intent and result, I think we can see the differences.

With Poe, his sacrifices were reckless and possibly unneeded. They hit the Dreadnought and arguably that ended up saving them in the end, but regardless his justification was they "wouldn't get another chance like this". In this case, the result was pretty good, but the execution was awful.

Finn's sacrifice was done in desperation. It was less of a "let's take advantage of this opportunity" situation, and more of a simple "this probably won't work, but it's our only hope" one. In this case, the intent was good, but the result was probably unlikely to yield anything positive.

With Luke, he shows up, embarrasses Kylo in front of the First Order Army, and buys time for the survivors to escape. The execution was flawless, and the result was as good as it could've been. Not only did he allow for the Resistance to escape, but through his death he has arguably become more powerful, much like Obi Wan so many years before. He's not just a war hero like Poe or Finn would've been had they failed- he's ascended past any sort of legend any being could ever have lived up to in life.

Obviously it's still a sacrifice, but it's one that maximizes the pay off vs the price.

 

I'm not sure that I buy Kylo was that embarrassed.

Think about it. Did anyone else know Luke was a projection? I doubt it. Certainly no one on the FO. Is Kylo weaker for that encounter... do any FO people think they can take Kylo now that Luke died and fooled him? I seriously doubt it. Kylo's position hasn't changed. Maybe his hit was even the cause of Luke's death (Kylo was affected by the rain in force Skype). Yes, Kylo failed in his goal to eliminate the dozen or so stragglers, but that had to do more with Rey. Yes, Luke delayed him long enough, but overall how concerned would the FO be with a dozen people? Rey... ok, sure, and probably Leia too... but the rest?

I just don't see those events having such a huge effect on Kylo in regards to his standing with the FO and its troops. It's a loss for Kylo, but I don't think the effect goes much beyond Kylo's own expectations for himself.

In a way, Luke's dying is the same as if Finn would have died... if the writers so wanted. Had the writers wanted, Finn could have hit the canon, the canon suffer a critical failure as it powers up, destroys itself and some AT AT's and hundreds of troops, delays the FO advance and removes the weapon that can destroy the gate. Then the resistance gets saved by Rey, and Luke still lives. I'm sorry, but Luke is likely infinitely more important to the resistance than Finn would be.

 

Well, sure, if the writers wanted they could've had an army of 10,000 gundarks come out and save the day. That's kind of how fiction works. Not really sure why that should matter.

My point isn't that Luke isn't less important to the Resistance than Finn, of course not! What I'm saying is that Luke, given his power and platform, was able to make a sacrifice that could and more importantly did save the Resistance. Finn, I would argue, did not have the station or power to do so.

The movie makes it pretty clear Finn's death would've accomplished absolutely nothing other than his own death. We can sit here all day and say maybe it could've stopped the laser, but at some point you have to consider that the language of the film should be considered in addition to the more in-universe reasonings. Especially when the film is set in a time and place where the characters are infinitely more qualified to know what's going on than the two of us.






As far as the First Order misunderstand Luke as a projection- that's actually an interesting theory. Heck, maybe they'll run with it.

I do have my doubts, though. Without Luke serving as the spark of hope in the galaxy, defiantly displaying immense power before becoming one with the force, the ending of TLJ crumbles, and I just don't think we have reason to believe that's the case. Again, look at the language of the film. Those kids in the stable were celebrating a hero, not mourning a death.

As for the First Order's' own perspective, that's a little more interesting. They're a fascist dictatorship, and much like our own... I mean, much like in other dictatorships, propaganda is a powerful too. Kylo and Hux will control the information of what happened there (and that might be a struggle between them in IX, possible).

But lots of the First Order was there, and anyone who watched that scene play out could probably tell something strange happened. The choreography just stops being a fight near the end, and it's pretty clear Luke isn't corporeal. Those that were actually there could very well know what really happened. Heck, maybe they'll be the seeds of that fabled stormtrooper rebellion?

Either way, you bring up an interesting idea I'd not thought too much into before.

 

I think the gundark argument is a bit of a straw man argument.

Within the story, we have Poe making a sacrifice that works, we have Holdo making a sacrifice that works all prior to Finn. It isn't outside of believability that Finn's sacrifice works too, it could have just as easily been the theme, ordinary people making the ultimate sacrifice to produce a good result. Though I understand what you're getting at, that the writers did make that scenario look hopeless, however, this is SW, we've seen several hopeless scenario's turn 1 in a million chances that worked. We've seen at least one in this very movie with Holdo prior to Finn's scene.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this point. I just don't see it the same as you do, especially when the movie, heck, the entire saga, has pushed this narrative as being a legit one, beating the odds, taking huge chances for the greater good, in this very movie, giving ones life for the cause. This is part of my issue with RJ over TLJ, is that he's so focused on surprising the audience, to have viewers perk up like we did in ESB at "I am your father", that he forgets it wasn't solely the surprise, it was the drama of what that statement meant. There was weight there, while the surprises he went with in TLJ were mostly empty imo. Surprising, yes, dramatic, not so much, and I believe he even recognizes this which is why he tries to do with quantity what ESB did with quality. But I'm veering off topic so I'll stop lol.

 

TLJ is a little inconsistent here but let me first reiterate the first half of my point here. If Finn thought the Ram Cannon could be taken out, we as the audience ought to believe him since he has been the Subject Matter Expert on the First Order. He is the one that informs all of us what the cannon even is. The cannon can be taken out. We shouldn't debate that.

If you are arguing that even if it he took out the canon it wasn't more important than demonstrating that Poe has learned his lesson, his lesson comes with contradiction. I can appreciate RJ trying to show growth through parallels, but Poe effectively learns a lesson from a mistake (attacking the Dreadnaught) that wasn't a mistake. If the Ram Canon could bust open the base door, what do we think the Dreadnaught would do if it was there? If Poe doesn't attack the Dreadnaught they don't even have a last stand to make. It's arguable whether or not they even make it to Crait with the Dreadnaught firing on them.

 

I appreciate your response, but I don't really recognize anything here that counters my points and other points I cited. So I'll respectfully say I disagree with your position.

What was Poe's sacrifice? Holdo's sacrifice buys the team time and saves what's left of the Resistance. I take the film at face value and believe Finn wasn't going to blow the cannon up. His sacrifice doesn't really help anything. It just proves he's 100% into the cause.

 

The problem with this perspective is that it runs entirely counter to the premise of that scene and its place in the greater narrative. Rose’s line says it all. “That's how we're going to win. Not fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.” If Finn’s attempt were to have been potentially successful - to have actually accomplished something, then that sentiment goes straight into the toilet. It would make no thematic sense.

Paige sacrificed her life. Not out of hate for the FO, but love for her sister. Holdo sacrificed her life. Not out of hate for the FO, but love for the Resistance. Finn was willing to sacrifice his life. Not out of love for anything in particular, but out of hate for the FO. Rose was also willing to sacrifice her life. Not out of hate for anything in particular, but love for Finn. Again, this could have been better presented in the film, but the alternative being suggested here just doesn’t work within the context of the story.

Woulda/coulda/shouldas don’t factor into that. The message was the message. Finn being prevented from saving everyone doesn’t reinforce anything in the story. It just makes Rose a selfish and shallow person. That might be a more convenient landing place for people who didn’t care for the character, but that’s not what the movie itself it trying to tell us. She saved him from a meaningless death.

This movie also had our heroes infiltrate an enemy base, in disguise, enacting a hairbrained scheme. Previously, that has ended in success in SW. This time it ended in >>FAILURE<< and that was a running theme in the story. However well intentioned, things don’t always go the way you want them to just because you want them to. It’s an important and refreshing lesson worth learning.

Man, defending this ‘so so’ movie is making me want to like it more than an I actually do

 

Exactly. Star Wars doesn't always have to make sense. Lol

But to play devils advocate, it was Leia in charge, so it is likely that they didn't want to lose valuable resources. So send out the speeders to help cover and maybe slow them down, while they evacuate all the important personal, equipment and ships.

Buuuuuut, had they sent in X-wings, they may have actually stopped the Walkers and the shield generator, which could withstand any bombardment, would have still be operating. But, then what? They're now cornered, with the possibility of even more Imperial Troops and warships arriving. They would eventually have been overwhelmed and defeated. Escape was the wise choice.

 

Spot on

 

I thought that scene was pretty straight forward. Poe was the field leader, and he made a call. He didn't have time to sit and think about it, or break out a calculator and determine a mathematical percentage of Finn's chances, he assessed the situation and saw that his squad was dropping like flies. Could Finn have stopped the canon? Maybe, maybe not, but Poe decided that the risk was too high. To him, the smart play was to live to fight another day.

Finn obviously believed he could do it, but whether he could have or not, he was flying with his heart and not his head. "No! I won't let them win!" And even with the slim chance that Finn makes to the canon in time, it would have only bought the Resistance time. They were still going to have to retreat as they were hopelessly outgunned.

That scene was classic Star Wars, it had all the feel of the young warrior with their heart in the right place, but not seeing the bigger picture. Whether it was Anakin rushing at Dooku, ignoring Kenobi, or Luke ignoring Yoda and Ben's plea in the Empire Strikes Back... Good stuff, people. Dang I love Star Wars.

 

True. I hated TLJ, but I own a Ski Speeder and nearly every TLJ action figure....except Rose.