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What's the point of this trilogy?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by DailyPlunge, Mar 3, 2018.

?

What's the point of this trilogy?

  1. A young woman's path to becoming a Jedi

    17 vote(s)
    12.2%
  2. The redemption of Ben Solo

    20 vote(s)
    14.4%
  3. The birth of the new Jedi Order

    11 vote(s)
    7.9%
  4. We'll cross that bridge when we get there!

    58 vote(s)
    41.7%
  5. Other

    33 vote(s)
    23.7%
  1. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Oh dear.

    For what it's worth, I entirely disagree on the aesthetic quality of these films, so I'm not liking them because they bring so little to our cultural panorama.
    In fact, cultural heritage preservation and exposition is among my top reasons these films are of great work to me, and I wrote at length regarding their cultural relationship within literary history.

    Sorry you didn't enjoy them. Hopefully you can eventually allow room for others to like them without requiring lesser standards be the reasoning for their appreciation.

    I don't find Kant too terribly useful, but Mr. Rodgers is always worth the time ontologically. Don't forget to tie your shoes. :p

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  2. DrDre

    DrDre Rebel Commander

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    The point of this trilogy, like most of the films that come from the House of Mouse these days, is to remind us, that nostalgia is one hell of a drug.
     
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  3. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Funny. That was the same reason critics lampooned the very first Star Wars in 1977.

    Cheers,
    Jayson

    MOD EDIT
     
    #343 Jayson, Jan 10, 2020
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  4. Dynamixx88

    Dynamixx88 Rebel General

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    The point of this trilogy is basically getting the NEW Star Wars to the cinema for the new generation to get hooked on.
    I saw the OT first, loved it (but it was easier to watch as I was born 11 years after the New Hope premiere, haha! and the versions were the 90's pre-Special Editions), it was around 1993, I was 5ish to 6ish, the movie felt long, but I liked Luke and the X-wing attack on Death Star... never saw anything like it!
    Later I was hyped that there are two more movies! I was hyped even more seeing some concept art in 1997/98 of Naboo Starfighters and learning, that there is story about Darth Vader as a Jedi before he fell to the Dark Side and was completely flabbergasted! I was ten years old on my first SW movie in cinema, Episode I. It was unbelievable! And yeah, we found Jar Jar funny and Anakin was awesome, we couldn't believe that he is Vader - what a tragedy awaits him.

    And there you go basically, as a kid growing up on 80's movies like Batman or Jurassic Park, Star Wars looked awesome at the time...
    Then came the PT and it went ahead in cinematography, the OT aged, but was remastered and enhanced by new tricks and animations and frankly, even tough I never liked the replacement of Lapti Nek! as it was timeless Star Wars song, the Cloud City segment looks a lot better and some of the new X-wing shots, etc. it improved the movies so they can sit next to the PT and you can watch it episodically. I remember that around the Attack Of The Clones, the OT was redone again and it was like watching completely new movies for me as a fan. Of course, as a kid, I loved it. Only episode I haven't saw was Revenge Of The Sith in cinema, as I discovered girls and Star Wars was not trendy... man, I am pissed at myself to this day! As Revenge Of The Sith is great.

    I grew with Prequel Trilogy and never hated it, as I haven't saw the flaws and as adult nowadays, I find Anakin in Episode II hauntingly creepy and the whole ''I slaughtered them as animals, children, women...'' and Padme's reaction?! WTF!! But when you are 13 years old, you have some idea about Playboys in your father's closet and you figure out that women are nice, but you have no idea how to comunicate with them, then these dialogues are not awkward at all and the most sexy thing is Yoda doing flips with lightsaber and what is weird about this limbless teen marying a princess? Because he is awesome!

    So naturally, girls got the heroine this time and her new trilogy. I like strong women characters (Wonder Woman, Batgirl as DC fan and I like Tomb Raider games), so no trouble with that and of course, if you buy Star Wars, what else will you hook the existing fans and whoever knows the 40 year pop culture?
    Continuation... no one will be interested about spin-off with original characters. Look what happened to Ghost Busters for example.
    That is the main point.

    Storywise? I like some new characters and I enjoy it being basically the old EU but more grounded and interconnected, with Imperial altough advanced remnants design-wise, the quasi Jacen Jayna stuff, mixed with Dark Empire. It was fun for me as a kid, that the stories continued and I did seek them, but still, the 6 episodes were the Star Wars. I still have those six episodes but now a bonus of three. Was it necessary? Well, no... But welcomed!
    I felt as a kid again on TFA, it was surreal, after 10 years of SW end and just a Clone Wars sidestory, I was on another episode! With my small brother, that was born in 2002. He loved it! TLJ pull some welcomed plot twists and it was really awesome in cinema... The Rise Of Skywalker was fun. It just should have been longer to have more breathing time as it can not work as standalone movie, so there is no criteria for it being just a 2 hour episode.
    It felt rushed, the Xystan-class planet breaking star destroyers was my only real gripe with the movie... Sure, you are 30 years in hiding, FO has advanced Empire weaponry, but you just go with classic star destroyer and mount a planet killing weapon on, to quote Poe Dameron ''of course you do''.
    The fleet was impressive enough on it's own, killing planets is way unoriginal now as you don't feel the awe anymore and I can understand the recycled design, as JJ wanted to link this movie with all that was before, so basically slap in familiar empire destroyer... but that was a cheap move, as FO destroyers already were familiar, so why not using deliberately the Dark Empire Eclipse design?

    Had the ST some impact on the overall story and was necessary to finish the hexalogy? Not much, it recycled what came before, including Palpatine and didn't add anything new overall in the grand scale of things... except for closures to our heroes, some interesting new designs and some ideas that I liked, like Holdo maneuver or the Force Dyad. Also, at least mentioning Mustafar in the opening crawl would be nice addition, as I like some of the new lore, but you have to buy visual dictionaries, to actually enjoy the movies more and as a HC fan (plus reading books and comics... eh).
    But in the end, it was awesome! Being again on Star Wars in cinema, actually waiting for something new, discussing it with fans and friends, living the Star Wars now and not in nostalgia, that was great :) So even with ST shortcomings, I am happy in the end, still living my childhood and being 31 years old now.
     
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  5. Phil J

    Phil J Guest

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    Below is a lecture by Georg Rockall-Schmidt on the rise of Hollywood cynicism and the growing frequency of high concept films that I am sure you will appreciate. It is most illuminating.

     
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  6. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel Commander

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    For the poll I wrote chose we'll get to it when we come to it. Like the haters like to bang on about there seemed to be no over arching plan for the films. The first film was little more than a re-hash of the ANH. It was the sci-fi version of the French resistance taking down the Nazis.

    So the main meat and potatoes for TLJ and TROS became the character work. Not that it bothered me, I honestly think that there are few things more interesting and fascinating that studying the nature of the human heart. Fortunately because of some very, good casting it worked (I hope Daisy Ridley was well compensated for TROS because she made the film) and smart writing it worked. But it could easily have been a disaster. But it actually worked and the films had a lot of depth. I've seen TROS 16 times and I just shake my head on how much stuff I've been able to pull out of a film that in many ways just has a simple plot. But it's the heart of the characters that gave the films so much depth.




    Well said. It was a tremendous theme throughout the film. Deciding who you are going to be, making something of your life and more to the point having the strength to get out of your own way to do so.
     
    #346 Veronica, Feb 22, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  7. Phil J

    Phil J Guest

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    But it is arguable that the New Republic is larger than the First Order. A more accurate description would be like when Operation Barbarossa was enacted against the Soviet Union during the Great Patriotic War (only without the prior purge of the officer classes (Beria was fond of those lists) or the scorched earth tactics). There are arguably even references to the Night Witches female led bomber squadrons.
     
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  8. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Hollywood since the 1900's says, "Welcome to reality, buddy".

    Seriously. He's wrong on so many counts because of his seeming ignorance of hollywood history.
    If you want to know why artistic films started happening in the late 60's, then start looking into the human network of Hollywood.
    Who were Lucas, or Kubrick's friends in the industry? Why?
    Who were their friends' friends? Why?
    Who did these people do business with? Why?
    Who is Alan Ladd Jr.? What made him unique?
    Was he typical, or did he take a lot of heat for being abnormal to the industry standard?
    What did John Ford have to deal with? Was it any different than today?
    Did Charlie Chaplin accomplish what he did because of or inspite of the industry?
    Was Buster Keeton making high concept film, or was the industry backing him because he was making quality art?
    The Three Stooges' entire career.
    Shirley Temple's entire career.
    The relationship between Vaudeville and Hollywood.
    Mel Brooks. Does he know this Hollywood that is interested in art and quality films?


    Here's the reality.
    In the 60's and 70's Hollywood went through a change of generational hands at the helm of the major studios. The first major TV generation was coming of age, and these actors, writers, and directors began to demand independence and not be owned by a studio. Major films were costing more and more in huge excess. Epics were choking the revenue due to grand standing what came before being the only option - to be a spectacle. Sound familiar?
    B-Films were the only real sure win on revenue and they rose rapidly through the silver screen era, but the new hands in the 60's and 70's saw them losing footing to the ever rising TV.
    Midnight showings and gimmicks helped keep them alive, but most of these were happy accidents stumbled on by a theater originally and not by design.

    Then there was a hit that blew everything wide open.
    Easy Rider. 1969.

    The new hands of Hollywood were scrambling. Throwing spaghetti at the wall and hoping something would stick. The old ways made no sense to them (nor were they possible), and everything kept changing so fast. Folks like Alan Ladd Jr. would benefit from this mayhem a few years later in a time when you could find a nearly unknown and untested person thrown into a high seat of power for obsurd reasons almost no one who was there even understands.

    Easy Rider cost a few hundred thousand, was shot by folks nearly off the radar in the studio's mind, and blew in 60 million in return.

    This was the noodle that stuck. The new business hands found their thing.
    Young directors with a finger on the counter-culture movement.
    They scrambled to get anyone they could, hand them a purse, and get a film as fast as possible. GO! GO! GO!

    Enter Alan Ladd Jr. 1973 right in the mix of this.
    The intial flash was wearing off, but surely a twist of the angle could work! Governing theory.
    Faster! More!
    This wasn't odd for Hollywood, but it was new to see this without an underlying foundation of a strong human political network to rely on like the silver screen heads had. That was gone. Every studio and man for himself, but go faster and get more!
    Confusion. Misunderstanding.

    Opportunity. For artists, especially directors, this meant flexibility. If everyone is in chaos, then no one can control the reigns very well and you can do more.

    This worked and didn't. We got some amazing films, but a ton of them burned the studio pockets by shoots running way over budget, deadline, and drugs just going more and more crazy on sets.
    Dennis Hopper, once seen as the golden child of this new wave was now an untouchable due to shooting disasters on productions that should never have happened by anyone in their right mind.

    It took years for Hopper to recover in the mainstream.

    Meanwhile, almost exclusively, Laddy (Alan Ladd Jr.) kept trucking along and turning out hits by pissing off boardrooms and letting artists be artist.
    Except. He didn't. He had a ton of flops. A ton.
    But his method also turned out huge hits.
    The huge hits kept him in power, but the constant instability of success kept him in threat.
    He eventually tried his own studio, and while we benefitted, it went out of business and it would be a long road for Ladd to get it back in form.

    Ghostbusters is about the last film of this chaotic era, and it should never be used as an example of artist filmmaking. It was straight up high concept, and has the most insane production, even topping Die Hard.
    Ghostbusters was a happy accident of absolute chaos and very low oversight that permitted a runaway production that would 99.999% of the time be the death of a film, but it somehow just happened to work.
    The film is also about nothing. There's zero character arc in it. The only change is they got a business. Nothing of their character changes. It defies convention entirely because of a stream of conditions way out of anyone's control. Fate just worked by happy luck, and skilled people meeting up with luck can make brilliant, but rare, moments.
    That should be in no book anywhere as an example of any film to make anywhere for any reason. If it happens, cool. But don't suggest it as a model example to aim for.

    Hollywood learned. The 80's punched them hard in the face. They had a ton of wins, but just a huge string of misses. Not every year was like the magical 1984 year.

    By the 90's, this model of fast, hands off, low front budget, high return was crumbling.
    Cannon films fell apart and chimed the bell of the beginning of the great studio collapse.

    Cannon, Orion, United Pictures, Caravan, MGM, and scores of others either closed up, filed bankruptcy, merged to survive, or just generally radically restructured from a major implosion of big hit explosions.

    The heyday of the post-silver screen era was over.

    The experimental college years were done, and the suits grew up and learned from hard experience what those great wigs of the silver screen era had once learned themselves in a similar chaotic heyday of the early 20th century, most notably through the 30's and 40's.

    Now we're back at the late 50's and early 60's. Grand shows, big spectacle.
    But there's a difference this time.

    They know that they're doing it, and...the high art show is well alive more now than ever thanks to huge distribution platforms for streaming movies and shows.

    Stranger Things, Maniac, and scores of artistic voyages would never see the light of day during the era he waxes about missing. If they did, they wouldn't be this well polished. Their budget would have been scraps at best, and marketing would have been nearly nill.

    Final thought:
    As to Alien. Alien's sales pitch was literally, "Jaws in space". That is what Scott threw out. Laddy, yes Laddy, said go.

    It wasn't two sentences and some industry recognition of high art.
    It was Scott gave Laddy a line that Laddy could tell the boardroom on the heels of Star Wars when everyone was hungry for another big hit scifi space film, and this crap script that had been struggling for attention for years finally got attention and Scott got on and drove it in a direction no one expected because...Scott.
    All because of a few rogues during a chaotic time.


    Know your history before opening your mouth and making a foolish mistake.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #348 Jayson, Feb 22, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  9. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I have been doing a 1-8 marathon leading up to the release of TROS on BluRay next month. I just finished ROTJ (OOT version ending), and in that context it really sets up for 7,8,9. The SE ending shows all of the galaxy celebrating so THAT feels like an ending to the Saga. But the OOT version feels like they won the battle, but not the war as they are celebrating just like they did after ANH. I actually feel now that TROS gives true closure to the Skywalker Saga with the death of Leia and Ben, with Force Ghost Luke/Leia, and the Image of Han with Ben. Rey going back to Tatooine works for me as a true ending to the Saga more than the celebration on Endor, as it is like the Skywalkers are passing the torch to her.
     
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  10. Phil J

    Phil J Guest

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    FVOss-.gif
     
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  11. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    To be clear, the idea of that comment was conceptually, in a proverbial way, directed at the video...not you.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  12. Phil J

    Phil J Guest

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    Glad that cleared that up.
     
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  13. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    Now that the trilogy is over and I've had time to reflect. Ultimately while I enjoy the characters there's very little in this trilogy that drives the saga forward. This was a trilogy made competently by committee to attempt not to alienate people. It's very much an original trilogy 2.0. The Force Awakens is fun and The Last Jedi attempted to move the series in an original direction, but the final film fails to tell a story that connect all 9 films.

    The last episode ends where Return of the Jedi ended. People spent decades wondering what Luke did after the fall of the Empire only to see everything he worked on destroyed. Even better we find out his chief enemy has returned under his nose. The trilogy ends with Rey to standing as the last Jedi.

    My point here isn't to bash the trilogy or blame anyone. This is basically the product of rushing a project and we're lucky it turned out as good as it did. It'll likely hold up better over the years than the PT.

    I just hope that in the future Lucasfilm is able to make new stories instead of telling the same one over and over. If that's the case, just do what WB is doing and remake a Luke Skywalker story ever decade.

    All that aside, I'd very much like to see some films with Poe/Finn/Rey that go forward instead of looking back.
     
    #353 DailyPlunge, Sep 2, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
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  14. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Rebel Official

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    The point was to make money.
     
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  15. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I think your post pretty much nailed it. The ST hit the mark with good characters, the movies were fun, they were well acted. But where they missed was just that overall story to make them overall relevant to the saga in context of being called 7,8,9.

    I don’t see them as the continuation of the 1-6 story, I see them more as an epilogue.
     
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  16. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    Kind of funny, but the sequel trilogy succeeded where the prequel trilogy failed. The sequel trilogy was well executed for the most part. The last film was bit of a rush job, but it never reaches the lows of the prequels. However, the prequel trilogy had a much better story. It just wasn't executed well.
     
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  17. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Spot on. The ST needed alittle more Lucas to help write the story and come up with those big theme ideas. The PT needed alittle less Lucas in terms of writing and directing.
     
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  18. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Rebel Official

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    Yeah like with dialogue, if you see the original script, it has corny Lucas dialogue, but he had people to help him write it. In the PT he had no filter, so the dialogue turned out like it did.
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    He needed a Kathleen Kennedy who Spielberg has repeatedly credited with helping save his career and reel him in from his own mind.
     
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  20. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    It's kind of insane that Disney bought Lucasfilm who hadn't been making big budget films in years and asked them to to make 6 films in 6 years. It's kind of a miracle it wasn't a disaster.
     
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