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What's the point of this trilogy?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by DailyPlunge, Mar 3, 2018.

?

What's the point of this trilogy?

  1. A young woman's path to becoming a Jedi

    18 vote(s)
    11.6%
  2. The redemption of Ben Solo

    22 vote(s)
    14.2%
  3. The birth of the new Jedi Order

    13 vote(s)
    8.4%
  4. We'll cross that bridge when we get there!

    61 vote(s)
    39.4%
  5. Other

    41 vote(s)
    26.5%
  1. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard
    1030th Junior * (Mod)

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    I left the force.net forums for that very reason. We are all fans here and want to express our love for Star Wars in the most civilized and diplomatic way as possible. You have 6 more post to go, and you will be able to rate other posters! :D
     
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  2. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    I was a Mod thru the move to xenforo from the old IGN boards. Toxic bantha blast doesn't even begin to describe TFN's forum wars.... OT vs PT, Jar Jar vs The WORLD, CT vs Lucas Tinkering Forever, Fans vs Lucas 4 Han Shot First, Hayden vs Not Being Leo, Natalie vs Caring About Acting, EU vs Canon, Ahsoka vs Not Being In The Movies, Stop Motion vs CGI and last but certainly not least, Anakin Being An Idiot vs Fans Not Expecting Him To Be Stupid Enough To End Up Living In That Suit. Anybody got any eggnog & Tylenol?

    u got that right.PNG
    Read along with the post number, I chuckled loud enough to wake the dog.
    +1 @madcatwoman17

    ***

    From a (dark) point of view.... good old fashioned forum debating is a shadow of its former self(epic fail)
     
    #422 Lord of the Rens, Sep 29, 2021
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  3. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard
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    Gusher vs. Bashers Wars :D Are you a Gusher or a Basher? Prequel Wars...
     
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  4. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    I was a charter member of the SDO. We raided the JCF at least once a week. It was glorious.


    True story, I was there so long that my best sock was the one that was made.
     
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  5. Prequelfan93

    Prequelfan93 Rebel Trooper

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    For Disney to make money milk SW dry and ruin what George created.
     
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  6. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    I like that!
     
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  7. Dryden Valiance

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    Sequel Trilogy: Fall of Star Wars, the Rise of Palpatine's grandchildren who somehow call himself a Skywalker?

    That's was too easy, they literally wrote by itself, But in all seriouness: even if I don't like the ST I'm glad that Disney briought back Star Wars after the prequel. We should be able to agree on this.

    The Mandalorian maybe it's not the greatest series of all time, but it's good. I never thought that Star Wars could return to be good. Plus Dave Filoni is one of the best Star Wars content creator working today. I'm glad he still working.

    Don't let your anger and disbelief for the New Trilogy lead you to the Dark Side, remember that everything happens a long time ago, in a Galaxy far far away.
     
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  8. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    I thought that the ST was originally the 'passing of the torch' to the next generation. I was a reylo fan, so I believed that Ben Solo would be redeemed, that there would be a romance between Ben and Rey and the film would end with them as a couple, ultimately the beginning of the next generation of Skywalkers.

    The PT was about the first Skywalker - Anakin. The OT was about his children.

    The ST, I thought, would be about his grandson.

    So I was genuinely stunned when they killed him off, and in such a way it was almost as if he was a disposable secondary character. All the screen time was given to Rey.

    I know a lot of people hate his character, but let's stop for a moment and think, putting aside our personal likes and dislikes.

    This was the Skywalker saga. The success of Rogue 1 and The Mandalorian proves that spin offs about non Skywalker characters can be extremely lucrative, so if Disney had wanted to tell a story about scavenger girls in deserts and rogue stormtroopers they could have made a separate series on tv, or a spin off film, with sequels if they proved a hit.

    At the end of the day Ben Solo was the last of the line of a family that were the heart and soul of Star Wars. The Dune saga was about the Atreides family. Even if I wasn't a fan of Ben/Kylo I still would find it strange that Disney chose to make the last films in the Skywalker saga about....someone else.

    Okay, they argued that they wanted a female protagonist so why didn't they make Rey a Skywalker? By blood.

    I'm sorry, but I will never be able to understand why they took this direction. The whole thing seems that they made these films to give George Lucas the finger.
     
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  9. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    This is silly. Fisher passing made the whole Ben redemption arc awkward, but to suggest they were out to get Lucas just because you don't like a story choice is a bit much.
     
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  10. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Not to mention that same net effect would have existed with Lucas' version, which focused on a young female protagonist Jedi-to-be who pushes Luke from his crabby nature onward, and Leia basically running the show.

    The "Skywalker" part of everything, as Lucas put it, was about yeah, you defeated evil, now how do you manage to keep it from rising up again - how do you run your new government when it's the harder thing to do?

    And Leia would have been shuffled to be "The One" and all previous ones would have been undone in some manner.

    Leia, in other words, given that Luke dies in Lucas' version as well, and there's no Ben Solo, is the Skywalker of the saga. Not 'who is the Skywalker of the future'?

    We know TROS was supposed to originally be Leia's swan song. That fell apart.

    The story was never about Ben Solo.
    Nor was this ever about Skywalkers.

    That is the dressing. Star Wars has always been about the ethos of championing goodness every day in our lives amongst a life filled with even our own darknesses.

    Skywalkers were a tool to articulate these points via metaphor of common struggles of life.

    Having two people at odds who are of one kind is the main bone marrow of this whole gambit, regardless of their names.

    Regardless which of the pairs died at any point, they were not dying - a part of one whole was dying each time.

    Anakin and Obi, Luke and Vader, Ben and Rey.
    Whose last name is present isn't the allegorical value. It's what those names represent and how their actions with those names' attached ideals symbolize the central point: always struggle to become the good, even when you fail and lose a part of youself.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  11. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    To the disagree:

    At least a good half of what I wrote isn't anything to agree with or disagree with. It's strictly information of facts.

    The second half is aesthetic interpretation, but one that is more or less a paraphrasing of many of Lucas' own comments about the point of the stories.

    That is: the story's value isn't about a bloodline and petty nit picking over who's top dog, or rightfuly due some honor.
    It's about a topic Lucas brings up again and again: choosing to do good when all of us have good and bad in us, every day, making an effort. Light and dark, both in us. We will fail. The hope is in our recovery from our dark.

    He has also talked of myth and metaphor at length, of duality, and the characters as representing our different sides.

    So saying the second half is more or less a paraphrasing of Lucas' expositions.

    I suppose facts and summaries can be disliked.
    I didn't like what Catcher In The Rye was about either.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  12. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    With respect. why have you taken offence because someone has disagreed with your post?
    We ARE all entitled to our opinions?
     
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  13. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    No offense taken.
    Commentary on a position that I find odd.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  14. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    If there is one thing I find interesting about forums, it's how varied people's opinions are....

    As an example, I see Kylo/Ben as a victim of child abuse. Others see him as an abuser.
    As I once said on the JCF....we all see life through different lenses. It's why you can't please all the people all the time.:oops:
     
  15. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    I think this is a good example of something I find problematic in the new trilogy.

    Rian Johnson is a great filmmaker, and TLJ is a well-made film. And in our day, the "good filmmaker" thing to do is to get psychological, to deconstruct.

    TLJ opened up a can of worms by bringing questions of trauma, abuse, and psychology into the Star Wars discussion. Classic Star Wars is much more of a fairy tale, a myth, a classic saga; even when it's subversive, it's subversive on that plane, not on a psychological level. It's much more spiritual and political than psychological. It's not about abused or abuser, it's about good or evil. It's myth.

    But once RJ brings in questions of abuse, trauma, etc, there's really no good way out of it. It brings the heightened good vs evil story down into a more realistic level of abused vs abuser, and there's really no way to get back to that heightened story without feeling somewhat empty.

    All this to say: I think you're totally right to see Kylo as a victim of abuse. I think, however, that as so often tragically happens, the abused becomes an abused. That Kylo's own pain leads him to a place where he manipulates and hurts others, like Rey.

    But I also kind of wish that we didn't need to have those sorts of conversations in Star Wars.
     
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  16. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I don't mind those conversations in Star Wars. Being royally screwed up has been there from the start.
    The entire first trilogy is essentially, "I've got absent father issues".

    Star Wars has almost never single-threaded any of its characters. They are all conflicted.
    What we are supposed to do, save for Palatine, is sympathize with them even if they ultimately fail.

    I think this particular tangent has overlooked that both Anakin and Ben came back around in the end, because of the sympathy and love given them by others.
    And Luke and Rey both stumbled and almost fell because of their rashness and self-righteous hatred.

    Ben was abused, and the abuser, but let's not lose sight of where he ends. He is not the slain dragon of the story.
    He is not Mr. Evil.
    He is the tragic loss whom we endearingly see save the day and himself, just like his much admired Grandfather, in the 11th hour.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  17. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    I often wonder how people would have reacted if Kylo was the 'good guy' and Rey the villain - in short, the roles reversed.

    Would Rey be seen as an 'abuser'?
    Would it have been 'beneath' Kylo to try and save her?
     
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  18. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Ben was the good guy.

    That was kind of the entire point.
    He was the tragic case of a good person caught up into a warped way of thinking, and lashing out in an attempt to control his situation by force.

    The only true-blue villain of the sequel trilogy is Palpatine.
    Everyone else is some flavor of deluded, or brainwashed person.

    When you flip it around, it's the same on the good side.
    The only true-blue good person on the good side is Leia.
    Everyone else is some flavor of deluded, or brainwashed person.

    A massive chunk of TLJ's entire point was that both sides were equally deluded into idolizing and glorifying their positions.
    Everyone starts out horribly deluded in TFA. Heck, even after deprogramming, Finn is still way off in la-la land idolizing the Resistance like a superfan.

    TLJ was where everyone, including Ben, learned their convictions were exactly opposite of what they should be.
    And in TROS, after everyone buckles in thinking they finally got their heads screwed on straight, they find that they are, actually, entirely on their own with really no support - especially both Ben and Rey.
    That it's up to them to be the source - they can't borrow it from somewhere.

    The only two principle characters who walk out of the story without ever faltering from their stoic positions were Leia and Palpatine.
    Essentially the two goal posts of good and evil.

    Everyone else was a foundering mess of false beliefs in Act 1, having their false beliefs pulled out from under them in Act 2, and finding their faith in their truth in Act 3.

    Which is a pattern of writing you'll see touted everywhere screenwriting is taught. That's basic moral conflict structure.

    Ben is not bad anymore than Anakin. He's tragic, but not bad.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  19. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    One of the reasons why I wish they hadn't killed him off.
    I actually didn't see Leia as 'purely good' either....she admitted in TFA she'd made mistakes raising her son, and sending him away was the worst of them. It doesn't make her a 'bad' person, just a flawed one, which is why I like her character - human beings are flawed.

    Among my many dislikes of TROS is how they revealed Leia had been training as a Jedi - it was completely out of character for a passionate woman who loved Han Solo and wanted a career in politics to decide to become a 'space monk'. It also made her out to be a poor mother - she could have trained her son herself, yet chose to send him to someone else because she couldn't be bothered. She could, however, be bothered to train Palpatine's granddaughter.

    So many people moaned about how TLJ 'demonised' Luke....but if anyone demonised the Twins it was Terrio in TROS, which is super ironic as he claimed to be among their biggest fans!
    But there again...remember Annie Wilkes..:eek:
     
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Purely good referred to the temporal setting of the Sequel Trilogy.
    All of the comparisons were isolated to the behaviors and actions we see in the movies.

    It's also something that Carrie Fisher had been wanting for a very long time, and was a running joke between Mark and her. She would not let him be a royal because she wasn't made a Jedi.

    That's a lot of finger pointing and convicting going on there.
    We can call out Han Solo as a womanizing brute who doesn't respect a woman's right to say, "Stop", as well, but is that the position of the movie?
    No. And it's not the position of the movie that Leia was out of character in finally taking some training, but not all of it, and passing what she knew on to the only person she had to hope upon for finishing things after Luke was gone. Also, she didn't train Rey. She gave her advice. She wasn't capable of training her. She never finished her own training. Nor was it the movie's position that Leia's a poor mother because of any of this.

    She had guilt over what happened with her son, whom she knew was troubled, and hoped Luke could save when she sensed that he was going to grow to be dark. That's in the movie.
    Her being a bad mother...not in the movie. Her feeling guilt. In the movie.
    Bad mother? Not in the movie.

    Her dying and calling out to her son across the cosmos and saving his soul? Totally in the movie.
    Bad mother? Not in the movie.

    And she relied on Luke because it's Luke - he's kind of the universe's go-to Mr. Myagi of Jedi Training in these movies (and in most of the fanbase's minds, and in the EU, and in video games, and in Mandalorian...pretty much everywhere).

    So why did she try to become a Jedi? Because she knew she could, and felt some level of obligation to do it given all that crazy crap that went down at the end of Jedi.
    Why didn't she finish? Because she's a dyed in the wool politician and being a "space monk" isn't where she is dedicated, and she sensed that it wouldn't end well if she went through with it.
    Why didn't she train her son? Because she didn't finish her Jedi training, and the original reason she sent him to Luke was in hopes that Luke would prevent him from going to the dark side in his future.
    Why did she guide Rey with advice? Because there's a Jedi in front of her and no Jedi's anywhere else around to call on, and if Rey's going to get anything done, she's going to need to get better than where she is before getting help. Should she have not trained Rey because she didn't personally train her son? That seems incredibly petty for Leia.

    No one demonized anyone other than fans demonizing characters in their own minds.

    The only character truly demonized in the entire trilogy is Palpatine and Snoke...and Snoke was just Yoda to Frank Oz so basically the same thing either way.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #440 Jayson, Nov 5, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2021
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