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What's the point of this trilogy?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by DailyPlunge, Mar 3, 2018.

?

What's the point of this trilogy?

  1. A young woman's path to becoming a Jedi

    21 vote(s)
    12.4%
  2. The redemption of Ben Solo

    23 vote(s)
    13.6%
  3. The birth of the new Jedi Order

    15 vote(s)
    8.9%
  4. We'll cross that bridge when we get there!

    62 vote(s)
    36.7%
  5. Other

    48 vote(s)
    28.4%
  1. DeeRush

    DeeRush Rebelscum

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    Why would the story require two people - namely Rey and Kylo Ren - to bring balance to the Force? Why is that necessary when Anakin has already done this some thirty years earlier? Why does this require two people?


    Talk about how that would be a lack of imagination on Disney's part . . . again.
     
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  2. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Because it's a sequel that takes place some thirty years later?
    Because it's more interesting storytelling?
     
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  3. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    There's no happy ending for Ben Solo once he kills his father. To me, that's the weirdest choice in the entire saga. It's one that's not talked about enough. There's any number of ways they could have staged Han Solo's death, but at the hands of his own son is just horrific. Since it happens at the end of the first film in the trilogy it would require a ton of exposition to explain and they had to use exposition just on the Luke fallout.

    Han dying at the hands of the First Order in a sacrifice in front of Kylo would have worked better towards his redemption arc, but for some reason they took this route. The only choices they had at that point were redemption sacrifice, redemption exile, or just make him the all out villain.
     
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  4. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel General

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    I remember Ford saying he wanted Han's death to 'mean something', which I took to be Kylo realising he couldn't crush the 'light' inside him no matter how he tried...as Snoke put it, 'it split his spirit to the bone'. Thus, it was actually his first step on the path to redemption.

    But, looking back at TFA, I think all Abrams was doing was setting up the last Skywalker to be hated - so the GA would embrace Rey as a more 'worthy' replacement.
    If you take TLJ out of the ST it's obvious.
    The legacy sabre goes to Rey - not Kylo.
    Rey instantly bonds with Chewie.
    Rey sees Han as a 'father figure'....and mourns him as such.
    Rey is hugged by Leia at the end.

    Now, if you skipped TLJ, TROS is simply the continuance of that, apart from the 'reylo' kiss, and Abrams insisted that there was 'nothing romantic' in it at all.

    Apparently according to a couple articles I read, Abrams wasn't happy when Harrison Ford wanted to put in the scene where he stroked his son's cheek...and he also didn't want the 'kiss' in TROS, but DLF were adamant on the latter. If this is true (although as someone else pointed out, you can't believe everything you read about on the internet), then Abrams never wanted the audience to feel anything other but hatred for Kylo.

    He wanted the ST to be Rey's story, and ultimately.....it was.
     
  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    This is what JJ had to say about that scene in the commentary. And commentaries certainly aren’t to be taken as gospel either. But it makes sense enough to me.
    ________________________________________
    People have asked me if I think that Kylo Ren was just playing with him the whole time. If he meant to kill him from the beginning. And the truth is, I think, that Kylo Ren, in this moment, is actually being convinced to walk away from this. Snoke is, as Han says, using him. And I think that somewhere Ben knows this. But I think that he can't accept it. Deep down, he has gone too far.

    We were working on this scene quite a bit, trying to find the right rhythm. And it was actually John Kasdan, Larry's son, who helped us with this. And I think really helped us get to a place where there was a lot of emotion. But also this sort of raw uncertainty of what was going to happen.

    Obviously, anytime two characters in Star Wars go out on an incredibly thin bridge 10 miles above the ground, with no railings, it's not going to end well for one of them. But I don't think that in this moment this is a put on. I think that Ben is legitimately going to give up. But then the idea was that, in this moment where he's taking the lightsaber and offering it to him, as a gesture, the sun finally is drained from the sky. And you see the light go away. And now they're in this darkness. And darkness takes over.

    And as if this moment isn't disturbing enough, he pushes the Sabre further in and says these terrifying two words [“Thank you”]. In Kylo's mind, what he has just done seals the deal. It's the ultimate proof to Snoke that he is to be trusted. That he will not be seduced by the light. And I think the instant that he's done it, he regrets it.
    ________________________________________
    Judging solely by that, I’d say the trajectory TLJ takes is totally in line with JJ’s intent. Killing his father left Kylo even more fractured than before. What it was meant to achieve, didn’t happen and is the catalyst that leads to his redemption.
    Well, yeah. Just like the OT is Luke’s story. Viewed through the lens of the PT, it’s more Anakin’s story. But, on it’s own, it’s no question whose journey that first trilogy is about. It’s Luke who is transitioning from childhood into adulthood. The ST is about Rey. Ben features prominently as her dark reflection - her counterpoint, but it’s her coming-of-age experience we’re following. Not his.
     
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  6. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel General

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    I...wonder, seriously, regarding the former. I have TFA on blu ray and I've listened to the commentary a LOT. He also said that the title refers to the Force Awakening in the hero (Rey) but also the villain - Kylo.
    I know he said that Kylo regretted what he'd done, but I don't think he intended to make him sympathetic. In TROS, he was the 'big bad' all the way until the last twenty minutes.....which is why it seemed so jarring. And what I really noticed was that Johnson got rid of the mask because he wanted Adam Driver to show his face, he wanted to see what was going through Ren's mind through Adam's acting. Abrams brought it back.

    As for it being Rey's story...I'm sorry but I'm just so...sad that they decided to kill off the heroes' bloodline. Most of all, I'm sad that they chose to make Rey a Palpatine. It's destroyed my affection for all the other films. I can't watch any of them again knowing ALL the characters are dead...and their descendent. The Solos and Skywalkers are gone forever...the bad guy's bloodline lives on.
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I reckon if he wanted the audience to view the character as unsympathetic then he did a really lousy job at it. Which isn’t impossible, I guess, but kind of unlikely I feel.
    Still more believable than Vader having his change of heart mere seconds after threatening his son with turning his own daughter. Kylo’s only real aim in the movie rested on turning Rey, predicated on her coming to the same conclusion he’d come to: corruption is in his blood and inevitable - there’s no point in fighting it.

    His change of heart comes after he experiences the sacrifice of his mother, Rey’s giving her life to heal him, and the memory of his father’s devotion. However far he’d fallen, there were still people that hadn’t given up on him - disproving his perspective of being irredeemable. I’m not going to say it was amazing, but it’s something and was built on what was set up previously.
    That I can’t answer. I really really wish there was a commentary track or something for TROS. The mask coming back makes sense as a metaphor: he has a secret agenda he’s keeping hidden from Sidious - a false facade he’s promoting while he enacts his own plan. He’s lying to Palpatine and to himself on a deeper level. But that honestly can’t be why he goes through the effort of rebuilding the stupid thing. Then, later in the movie, he pointedly takes it off to show he’s being ‘real’ with Rey and . . . it’s just gone. We don’t see it again. The hell?
    The message I got was that it doesn’t matter who you are or where you come from, anyone can be a positive change in the world. No one is born destined to make the world a better place. It’s all about the choices we make. I’m not sure how that could make anyone sad. But to each their own.
     
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  8. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Maybe because I'm an American I'm not really hung up on bloodlines. Luke is a hero since my childhood. He's not less of a hero to me because he didn't have kids.
    Such a weird choice to me that JJ even bothered with the whole Palpatine grandfather thing. That's gonna be a big eye roll from me forever. Rey calling herself Skywalker after being trained by both Luke and then Leia and helping redeem Ben makes sense to me.
     
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  9. willburns710

    willburns710 Clone

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    This trilogy was about as good as the ending of game of thrones ; /
     
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  10. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel General

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    I liked the first two, especially TLJ. But it's funny you should mention GoT 8 because a LOT of people on tumblr have been doing exactly the same.
    GoT 8 seemed 'rushed' to me - like the writers had gotten bored and just decided to hurry up and finish it so they could move on to other things.Characters killed off quickly, without any real resolution - Cersei Lannister, for example, if anyone deserved a really nasty end it was her, Lena Headey herself said so.

    TROS seemed cut from the same cloth - let's hurry up and finish the Skywalker saga so we can continue SW without any of Lucas's legacy characters - and their heirs, and 'do our own stuff.'
    Which is why it's so ironic that they have Luke popping up in Mando, as they wanted the Skywalkers gone.

    It's also ironic that they decided to make Rey a Skywalker - they wanted them gone, gone, gone....I suspect they gave her that name as a sop to people like me, who loved SW for the Skywalker and Solo family, just like the 'kiss' was a sop for reylos. Newsflash guys - judging from the reaction I've seen from most reylos, it didn't work.
    Funny thing is ... of all the names to pick, Skywalker was an odd choice for Rey considering Luke and she didn't really get on...how about 'Organa' or 'Solo'?
     
  11. barok232

    barok232 Clone

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    That’s a very good question...
     
  12. Martoto

    Martoto Force Sensitive

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    Can you give an example?

    This is why I said it's hard to take seriously any of the arguments you present as "constructive" criticism.

    You're entitled to your feelings I guess but I don't really see the point in raising them in this discussion of what the point of the trilogy is and in this manner.

    Seriously? Ben saving Rey's life after she has given hers to defeat her grandfather - you don't consider that part of the plot? Might I suggest that it's not part of a plot you would have preferred instead, and therefore you don't recognize it?

    I'm sorry, but characters dying has always driven the plot and the emotions of Star Wars. Not characters surviving. I don't know where you're getting that Lucas was never a fan. I do know that he had a sort of perverse snobbery about movies that manipulate the audience's emotions and thought he was above that, initially. But he does it ALL the time in Star Wars. Even changing the story midway through production because there weren't high enough emotional stakes in the two thirds of the movie after Owen and Beru and then Alderaan got 86ed. Thus he decided to kill the lone surviving Jedi knight who was supposed to train Luke going forward and make something up to replace him later.

    Where's the precedent for characters expressing how someone else's actions are seen by them? "You're a scoundrel" is the best I can do.

    We do get Rey calling Kylo a monster, repeatedly. And then berating him for killing Han Solo who offered him compassion. What else was there to express? And like I said, there's no real precedent for what you are demanding. And there was no imperative to change the style of Star Wars just to accommodate these things.

    The style of Star Wars had been fairly well established. If they had desired to tell a story about someone who betrays and murders family members and conspires with aggressors who cause the deaths of billions of innocent people and they face "consequences" that fall short of death, then that should have come way earlier in the trilogy. If you don't like the idea of Ben's willing and conscious sacrifice closing one book and opening another in the "Skywalker" mythos, How exactly is the, in my opinion, trite idea of Ben surviving just to have people tell him off (again) going to stimulate anything positive? Is having the last son of Skywalker a galactic pariah a good way to end the Skywalker saga? It just doesn't add up.

    I just don't see any inherent added value in Ben Solo living to "face the consquences". You CAN do just about anything in movies, of course. But that would have taken a lot of commitment from waaaaaaaaaay sooner than in the last act of the trilogy.

    Virtually everything in the last few pages that has been suggested was the filmmakers intent only to be subsequently undermined by the next filmmaker or by themselves in a later film has been the opposite of what was stated at the time. Abrams even talks about how he anticipated the moment Kylo, the monster, took his helmet off and the audience sees "a Prince" and doesn't know what to think. He literally sets up the divide and rule way that Snoke (in hologram) deals with Kylo and Hux, which Johnson then fully exploits in TLJ with Snoke in the flesh.
     
    #592 Martoto, Apr 5, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2022
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  13. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel General

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    Examples in OUAT: I did actually mention them but here we go:
    Mr Gold/AkA Rumplestilskin:
    Murdered a LOT of people - including his own wife. Lived a happy life with his wife and only died after she'd passed....and he wanted to be with her
    The Evil Queen - Regina's doppelganger, who got her happy ending with an alternate version of Robin Hood
    Killian Jones/Captain Hook - killed David's father, got a happy ending with Emma, and their daughter.

    And yes...I know full well that both Rumple and Killian 'died' but they were restored to life. They could have done the same with Ben - have him die helping Rey defeat Palpatine, then revived, but Abrams wanted Rey Mary Sue Palpwalker or whatever she calls herself to have all the glory!;)
     
  14. Martoto

    Martoto Force Sensitive

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    Examples in the original unaltered trilogy?
     
  15. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    I think they meant Once Upon a Time. The "original original trilogy" is more commonly referred to as the oOT.

    Also, I don't recall Rumplestiltskin being in the OT. :)
     
  16. Martoto

    Martoto Force Sensitive

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    So the issue is that they didn't Disneyfy it enough? That they didn't consider or assume certain fan's peculiar desires and wishes and cater to them arbitrarily? ("Fan service")
     
  17. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel General

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    Yep, I did. Never saw the oOT to be honest.

    Martoto... interesting what you said, regarding 'fan service'....as a lot of people think TROS was DLF catering to the fans who poured such hatred on TLJ.
     
  18. Martoto

    Martoto Force Sensitive

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    A lot of those who make that claim are people who hated TLJ themselves and it comforts them to think that TROS did a disservice to those that enjoyed episode VIII and that it vindicates those that didn't instead.
     
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  19. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    That was his wife not Geroge himself. A good call for sure, I agree.

    And now we are bound to this forever? We aren't allowed to evolve or change? Boring.


    My biggest issue with Ben dying is the message for kids. Ben turned back to the light side and did everything to save the galaxy, but apparently he still has to die (because this is how SW works?). A much better message would have been to let him live. You do good, good rewards you.

    But in the end I don't care anymore. It is what it is. But if the rumors are true about a Rey show on Disney+, then I can guarantee that Ben Solo will return to the living in this show.
     
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  20. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel General

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    I'd like that... but I think it's just wishful thinking on my part.
     
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