1. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Whats wrong with Gungans?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Captain Sabalan, Oct 24, 2014.

  1. Shawshank

    Shawshank Rebel General

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2014
    Posts:
    599
    Likes Received:
    653
    Trophy Points:
    4,137
    Credits:
    1,156
    Ratings:
    +1,289 / 48 / -65
    Well I know with me, my...certain point of view...came from growing up watching Star Wars, Indiana Jobes, The Michael Keaton Batmans (and Adam West oddly enough), and many other action/dramas that I was used to (I'm pretty sure one year for Christmas I asked for The Fugitive on VHS as a gift...yeah...I was that weirdo.). I was that kid who didn't understand why my friends had never heard of Carey Grant, Rock Hudson, Gregory Peck, Jimmy Stewart, Clark Gable, etc, so my film background growing up was...different.

    Don't get me wrong, I regularly enjoy the PT and at worse roll my eyes at parts because I always think that Lucas was going for humor in the wrong way.

    Say...the difference between "laugh it up fur ball" and "exqueeze me!"

    Ugh...seriously.....the dialect was just miserable for the Gungans and Jar Jars ridiculous voice made it worse. Meesa. Weesa no, exqueeze me.... Jesus Lucas....why? What were you thinking? That's AWFUL. I

    I know Lucas likes to (and oddly gets away with) doing hilarious racial stereotypes, but the Gungans sounded like bad charicatures of black slaves and Italians. Seriously, read the following in either voice:

    That's a why meesa thinks you'ano lika us.

    Tell me that's not awful and annoying and doesn't make your left eye twitch a little.

    And yeah if you don't think George was blatantly making stereotypical accents for the Gungans and Watto (who oddly is a physical and personality "Jew" with and Italian accent") then you really need look no further than the Neimodians...oh my...

    It's...it's so blatant...like he just ran out of ideas. Or maybe he thought because the republic/empire was filled with Zbrotish accents, and the Rebellion with Anerican accents, that he could do that as a generalization for each faction.

    I don't know...but I can't imagine being Asian and watching the PT whenever the Trade Federation comes up. I'm surprised they didn't actualy say "ah-so" or "grasshoppa"
     
    #21 Shawshank, Oct 26, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2014
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  2. RBanks

    RBanks Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I thought the Gungans overall were pretty cool, but I could not stand Jar Jar. Reason number one for me is pretty simple- I could not understand what the heck he was saying. It took me three viewings before I finally figured out his dialogue. I could undestand Boss Nass and the other Gungans just fine, but Jar Jar sounded like unintelligible gibberish to my ears. And he was just everywhere doing the most irritating of things all the time.

    I'm introduced to the most darkly fearsome villain I'd ever seen in Darth Maul, and then the scene cuts to this silly overly-cartoonish character being as in your face obnoxious as possible.

    I liked the other Gungan characters, the underwater city and sub were neat, and I thought their catapults and shield generators in the final battle were really facinating and original designs. And the Gungan soldiers/warriors were quite impressive, that is until Jar Jar showed up and totally destroyed any sense of tension and urgency in this huge, pivotal battle.

    Gungans-Good

    Jar Jar-Not good
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Wise Wise x 1
  3. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Posts:
    1,243
    Likes Received:
    4,099
    Trophy Points:
    13,807
    Credits:
    5,238
    Ratings:
    +5,514 / 125 / -33
    I think semantics are important in any debate made up of words. Especially when there is an accusation of something being racist. And now its changing from racist to offensive. Anything under the sun can be offensive to somebody. But racism is a serious charge. I definitely see where you're coming from though. I can't help myself but to argue, sometimes. I think we've just got a slightly different outlook on the subject.

    Is there a George quote out there about him using old character archetypes? Or is just an accepted assumption that he did so? Not trying to re-stir the argument, just wondering. It sounds like something he would've talked about in an interview or something. Surely he's been asked about it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Posts:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    4,602
    Trophy Points:
    14,747
    Credits:
    5,997
    Ratings:
    +7,327 / 99 / -40
    As far as I'm aware, George has never responded to the notion that his races were based in prejudicial character types. If anyone has anything like that I'd like to see it. But I doubt it exists. If anyone every had the guts to ask him about it, I doubt he would respond let alone have admitted he accidentally drew his characters from racial stereotypes. But he is on record as wanting to mimic the 30's epics with the PT. And racial stereotypes ran rampant in those movies.

    I am also not changing my argument from racism to offense. I am using offense as the measure of the act of racial stereotyping. Offense felt because of it would constitute racism as stereotypes exist based on the belief that there is a fundamental difference in the abilities and behaviors of different races.

    As for the semantics, I couldn't disagree more. The question of whether someone is offended by something is not a logical one, it is an emotional one. Parsing words only serves to cloud the argument and diminishes the importance of the subject's offense. In most cases I'd agree with you, but in a case where the outcome and evidence of the offense is an emotional reaction, semantics have no meaning.
     
    #24 Rebo, Oct 27, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2014
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  5. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Posts:
    1,243
    Likes Received:
    4,099
    Trophy Points:
    13,807
    Credits:
    5,238
    Ratings:
    +5,514 / 125 / -33
    Yeah, I guess it's hard to quantify emotions. But I don't think we should be quick to blame the emotions of the offended on the offender. But I suppose it's all relative. Obi-wan would probably say, "The Gungans aren't racist!...from a certain point of view."
     
    #25 Cole, Oct 27, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2014
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Posts:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    4,602
    Trophy Points:
    14,747
    Credits:
    5,997
    Ratings:
    +7,327 / 99 / -40
    I think that's where the disparity is here. You are applying blame to my statements where there is none. In my eyes you can have malicious racism which is one person actively engaging in discriminatory or harmful acts against another race or you can have engrained societal racism. In the latter (of which I see the Gungans), I don’t see a need to blame the individual as much as to recognize the societal conventions that may be contributing to behavior or stereotypes being seen as acceptable. (Like when an older relative makes cringe inducing references to women drivers, or your buddies from high school you haven’t hung out with in 15 years still use “gay” as an insult) I, in no way, believe that Lucas or Star Wars should be branded as racist and admonished as such. But I don’t think the feelings of the offended should be discounted either.

    The outcome in my mind shouldn’t be a call to boycott Lucas or the PT, just to recognize the harm that these characters can do, and the historical context in which they are just one in a long line of offenders. Recognizing that context can prevent form similar stereotypes being used freely in the future as subsequent generations find their use unacceptable.

    But I do think we are straying from the initial topic. Maybe we need a philosophical debate sub-forum to discuss these issues. :)
     
    • Wise Wise x 1
  7. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Posts:
    1,243
    Likes Received:
    4,099
    Trophy Points:
    13,807
    Credits:
    5,238
    Ratings:
    +5,514 / 125 / -33
    Might be a good idea, but could be dangerous. If they make that sub-forum, that place could quickly become very strong with the Dark Side.(dark)
     
    • Wise Wise x 2
  8. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Posts:
    686
    Likes Received:
    13,500
    Trophy Points:
    95,337
    Credits:
    23,361
    Ratings:
    +14,740 / 59 / -13
    So far I've been extremely impressed with the maturity showed on this thread. It makes me proud to be a member of this online community. I know I'm not a staff member and my opinion shouldn't carry any more weight than anyone else, but my opinion is that this topic belongs right here in the "What's wrong with Gungans?" thread. Because the perceived racism is part of what's wrong with Gungans.

    Again, I want to reiterate how proud I am of you guys. Every response in this thread has been courageous, well written, and respectful.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  9. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Posts:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    4,602
    Trophy Points:
    14,747
    Credits:
    5,997
    Ratings:
    +7,327 / 99 / -40
    Yeah, I think the racism discussion has a place here in regards to Gungans as it is an integral part of why some dislike them. I was referring to the debate over "what is racism" being a bit off topic. I felt myself veering strongly toward getting slapped with an Off Topic icon as we went deeper down that rabbit hole. Since I started that tangent, I thought I'd just slap myself for it. :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Posts:
    686
    Likes Received:
    13,500
    Trophy Points:
    95,337
    Credits:
    23,361
    Ratings:
    +14,740 / 59 / -13
    You don't need to slap yourself, Max. I'm right here, and what are friends for?

    Would you prefer being slapped with a leaky baby diaper, a stinky fish, or Carrie Fisher's lips? (No guarantees I can arrange that last one, but I'm sure I've got the first two choices covered.)
     
    • Like Like x 3
  11. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Posts:
    2,500
    Likes Received:
    4,602
    Trophy Points:
    14,747
    Credits:
    5,997
    Ratings:
    +7,327 / 99 / -40
    Sorry Pobody...nobody slaps me but my wife. At least, not for less than $500. I can't give away the milk for free ya know....
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. Sithwalker

    Sithwalker Rebel General

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Posts:
    614
    Likes Received:
    976
    Trophy Points:
    4,747
    Credits:
    1,991
    Ratings:
    +1,831 / 87 / -25
    Gun Gans are awesome. Jar Jar sucks.

    The End
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  13. Master Raze Golladio

    Master Raze Golladio Rebel General

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Posts:
    261
    Likes Received:
    249
    Trophy Points:
    3,867
    Credits:
    1,142
    Ratings:
    +470 / 51 / -8
    To me, Gungans were a part of a bigger picture of what was wrong with the PT. For some reason best known to himself, George lost sight of the level and depth of comedy used in the OT and blew it completely out of proportion for the PT. I didn't feel there was any real need for:
    • Jar-Jar catching his face in the podracer's energy bindings,
    • Jar-Jar trapping his fingers in the engine's fan blades,
    • the creature to fart at Jar-Jar before the podrace,
    • Jar-Jar stepping in poo in Mos Eisley,
    • Jar-Jar's oafish clumsiness on the battlefield,
    Etc., etc. The Gungans were a well-conceived species (except for their feet as pointed out earlier in the thread), their civilisation looked peaceful and clearly thrived in symbiosis with the Naboo, and the shielding technology used to keep their cities dry - still not sure why they would have needed this - was brilliant. It was just the over-use of silly comedy that became a problem for me that wasn't just limited to the Gungans; Threepio's jokes in the droid factory and the Geonosian arena were just ridiculous, for example.

    So in summary, what was wrong with the Gungans? Their feet were badly designed. Oh, and Jar-Jar, but I figured that was a given. :cool:

    And also this:
    [​IMG]

    EDIT: Sorry, just remembered something vitally important that adds another nail to the coffin of the Gungans. Jar-Jar is single-handedly responsible for the deaths of billions over the course of the next 36 canonical years. If he hadn't been stupid enough to be duped into voting for Chancellor Palpatine to be given all his emergency powers, Palpatine would never have got as far as he did with his plans, would not have gained his own personal army, and would not have become Emperor. Told you he's evil. :p
     
    #33 Master Raze Golladio, Dec 3, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2014
  14. Dynamixx88

    Dynamixx88 Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2014
    Posts:
    234
    Likes Received:
    294
    Trophy Points:
    3,817
    Credits:
    881
    Ratings:
    +462 / 12 / -3
    I don't have much to say.
    I just think that Jar Jar was over-the-top. It weren't these witty fun lines like Tony Stark makes for example, he is just full-retard.
    The thing with Ewoks is just obvious, but they are more animals than civilized species with some hiearchy. Like more inteligent shimpanzees.
    I don't have that much trouble to accept other Gungans except for him.
     
  15. Ceruleanlord

    Ceruleanlord Rebel General

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Posts:
    675
    Likes Received:
    857
    Trophy Points:
    4,839
    Credits:
    2,523
    Ratings:
    +1,463 / 7 / -6
    My favorite was Captain Tarpals. Their words in baby speech was annoying. The most unbelievable thing was how clumsily lucky Jar Jar was, especially in The Clone Wars.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. figureaddicted

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2014
    Posts:
    7
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    9
    Credits:
    533
    Ratings:
    +19 / 0 / -0
    I have to honest...completely misinterpreted the title of your thread. I totally read it in kind of a "Whats wrong with the Gungans? .....are they mentally deficient?" Kind of way........lol.....but ,on topic, i didnt really have a problem with Gungans on the whole.......just Jar Jars annoying mouth. And i believe what a previous poster said about them representing the poor and forgotten denizens of Naboo.
     
  17. Echo-07

    Echo-07 Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2014
    Posts:
    1,250
    Likes Received:
    1,891
    Trophy Points:
    6,164
    Credits:
    3,515
    Ratings:
    +2,729 / 17 / -9
    Yeah, the Gungans aren't a problem = just another strange form of alien life. Jar Jar just didn't work so now everyone hates all Gungans.
     
  18. Sith Lord Huddi

    Joined:
    May 14, 2021
    Posts:
    1
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Credits:
    15
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    A bit late on this one... Where to start....

    I was about 10 when Episode I came out, and by far the biggest Star Wars fan in my school. I wanted to like Jar Jar, I really did. But I hated him. There was no outside influence to me feeling this way. I didn't hop on the internet and see all the hate he was receiving. I just watched it and couldn't stand the guy. Before I go on, I'll admin, he has grown on me a bit.

    1. His accent is ridiculous. Simply stupid. Very annoying. It's as if an overly obnoxious comedian was trying to mock a certain race while doing stand up in an inner city.... It failed to make me smile, and I was a silly 10 year old 5th grader. I think the only time I chuckled at his accent/what he says is when he says, "Exqueeze me!" And that's only because my little sister kept repeating it and dying of laughter. Captain Tarpals is a much more bearable Gungan. Same accent, but far less over-the-top.

    2. The jokes fall flat. The poop jokes. The clumsy making a mess falling around jokes. They're all just... flat. All of my friends at the time felt the same way about his humor as well. I remember there was very little laughter in the theaters too, so it wasn't just my friends and I that felt this way.

    3. He ruins what would be great action scenes. This is probably my biggest pet peeve as of today. The first time you get to see Kenobi and Qui-Gon in action on Naboo, Jar Jar falls down and screams. Horrifying deep sea creature the heroes have to face, Jar Jar screams and freaks out annoyingly. Getting pumped for a pod race, gets farted on by an ant-eater-camel. Time for Gungans to show "They'sa great warriors," Jar Jar acts ridiculous the entire battle. If you remove the Jar Jar scenes, it's quite incredible.

    Overall, Jar Jar is just an annoying character that didn't work out as Lucas expected. I'm not sure why anyone on the production crew didn't say anything to him...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. KZ-20

    KZ-20 Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2020
    Posts:
    60
    Likes Received:
    365
    Trophy Points:
    1,517
    Credits:
    1,503
    Ratings:
    +412 / 0 / -0
    I can identify with some of the things you are saying but I also have to disagree with some of your remarks.

    I would also describe myself as a silly 10 year old, back then, but to me the accent was not annoying at all and. To me it is cool that they enriched the Star Wars galaxy with another new accent and culture, even if some might consider it sounding a bit silly. It mirrors the real world in that sense, although they took it too far with how the Gungans were represented (stereotypical).

    I agree, some of his jokes also fell flat to me to. Though, in general I don't think Star Wars is a movie that make people burst into laughing in theater (besides the thumbs up of BB-8 :D).

    In regards to your last remark: if it was that easy to judge how a character will be received by your audience, any movie character would be perfect (and everyone would pursue a career in moviemaking ;)). Don't forget, these people have studied a long time for this and have a lot of experience. George believed this was a great character, and it indeed did not work out the way he expected it to work out. Perhaps there was a lack of collectiveness, but you could also say: people close to him might have trusted George. If you ask me, as fans we can also not expect that they get it right in every Star Wars project they will make, because it is too difficult for that. The likes and dislikes of your audience are constantly in motion, just like popular music changes over time.

    As a 10 year old, even though it is a long time ago, I believe I did appreciate Jar Jar. It was my first Star Wars movie and from that moment I was hooked. If Jar Jar would have been that bad, I would never have become a fan. Probably in my teenager years there was a period I also lost all interest in the character, but by now I am okay with him again. And of course, the stuff Ahmed Best had to go through he did not deserve for doing what was expected of him. I believe he is a great guy.
     
    #39 KZ-20, May 14, 2021
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  20. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    2,172
    Likes Received:
    5,445
    Trophy Points:
    15,317
    Credits:
    5,422
    Ratings:
    +8,245 / 34 / -9
    The Gungans, in TPM, have their origins in the very problematic legacy of the pulp action/adventure archetype of the ‘noble savage’. They’re the simple, yet potentially dangerous, natives who our protagonists have to befriend in order to achieve their objective. It’s a concept that’s staunchly imbedded in colonialist and imperialist rhetoric. It’s the equivalent to the Allan Quatermain character’s allying himself with indigenous African tribes in order to seek treasure in H. Rider Haggard's ‘King Solomon's Mines'.

    It’s a version of the ‘white savior’ trope where the learned and advanced caucasian folk bring their civility to a backward aboriginal culture for ‘mutual benefit’. It sounds lovely in theory, but is actually fairly offensive when you really think about it. It usually gets presented as something of a parent/child relationship, where the enlightened colonialist figures instruct juvenile minded natives to be more like them. "You and the Naboo form a symbiont circle. What happens to one of you will affect the other. You must understand this." "Wesa no carrrre-nn about da Naboo."

    Star Wars, of course, is no stranger to adapting pulp inspired traditions and their stock story conceits, but usually there’s some degree of reexamination. Like in ANH, we’re treated to the very VERY tired chestnut of the ‘damsel in distress’ cliché of ‘rescuing the princess’. But that expectation is deliberately subverted by instead having the princess be in some agency of rescuing herself. In TPM though, there’s no subversion with the Gungans. No reevaluation. It’s just the thing. This incredibly uncomfortable thing, but . . . . in space.

    Anyway, that’s what I think is wrong with the Gungans.
     
Loading...

Share This Page