Where are the plot holes?

There aren't really any plot holes I think it's moreso people disagreeing with the plot and using the term incorrectly. There are weird continuity issues though like Finn's bag magically appearing in the escape pod between shots and no explanation for how Finn dragged Rose all the way back on Crait that probably could've been explained or cleaned up for a movie with this budget. It's a little sloppy.

 

well ( in the bf2 game) crait there is a system of trenches and caves, so, the safest thing is that Finn has dragged Rose through those places, until they reach the base

 

Wow, some people in this thread are in denial. Scary!

Writers consider anything a plot hole when the cause and effect of the plot breaks down. For example, when characters' actions make little sense, or when the action itself makes little sense, that means the director/writer has failed to establish sufficient cause and effect -- i.e., a hole in the plot.

You can find problems like this in almost every scene of The Last Jedi.

Why doesn't the First Order blow Finn and Rose away as they sit there like easy targets on Crait?

What was the resistance even trying to do to stop the Walkers on Crait? What was the plan?

Why do Leia's powers disappear conveniently when the Resistance needs to move a few rocks?

Why doesn't Kylo use the Force in his battle with the Praetorians? Why doesn't he toss them around like playthings?

Why doesn't Hux blow Poe away the minute he attempts contact with the First Order?

Why doesn't the Resistance cruiser have shields? Why are Leia and the leadership so easily blown to bits?

How does Leia get back inside the cruiser without everyone being sucked into space? How was she able to breathe while unconscious in space?

Why does Hux pull Kylo and the other TIEs back from their successful attack?

Why doesn't the First Order block the Resistance's escape? What are the other Star Destroyers doing?

Why doesn't Holdo use a droid to hyperspace into the Supremacy?

Why does Rey decide to befriend and romance a murderer who killed her friend Han and nearly killed Finn?

Why has Luke not grown wiser over 30 years? Why has he regressed to his ESB internal position. Why has the story ignored the wisdom he gained in ROTJ? Why has he allowed darksiders to run wild in his absence?

It's a mess of a film, and if one of my creative writing students submitted this story to me, they'd earn an F.

 

I think you raise some decent questions.
I took the liberty of trying to provide some possible solutions to your problems.

Maybe they're too close range for the weapons that could “blow them away”?

I'm guessing Asymmetrical Warfare Tactics similar to what were doing in space are at play here.
If you can't defeat the enemy outright you buy time to retreat and live to fight another day.

I'm thinking Force Pulling with zero mass in a vacuum is easier than moving those big rocks.
Maybe she would've given it a go in a moment of desperation?

I wondered the same thing too.
Maybe he was using the Force in the battle but chose a more deft approach that didn't risk interfering with Rey and her combat?

Maybe because Poe was pandering to one of Hux's weakness (his ego) to buy time?
You know how villains in kid's movies like their monologues!

Maybe they diverted the for'd shields to the rest of the vessel to withstand the barrage from behind?

Leia maneuvers between two bulkheads. When you see the vapor from de-pressurized it's safe to assume the outer bulkhead has been sealed.
Experiments and accidents have shown people can likely survive exposure to vacuum conditions for at least a couple of minutes.
Breathing or holding a breath would be a big mistake in a vacuum!

Hux explains he couldn't cover them from that distance and we see Kylo lose some of his wing support on his pass from the bridge.

Maybe they weren't needed as the FO were already successfully destroying the shuttles?
As soon as Holdo realizes they're taking fire she hammers the fleet.

Maybe autopilot features would avoid a collision course?
It also gave us a poignant moment with her and Leia while the sacrifice reinforced a central theme.

Because she thinks she has a chance turn Ben like Luke turned Vader.
She saw a vision of him turning when they touched hands and takes a risk for the same reason as Finn, Holdo, Rose and Luke did – belief it was their best chance to save friends.

Luke isn't perfect – he's undergone an existential crisis that rocked his most fundamental beliefs.
He is ashamed for sending Ben off the rails due to a fleeting moment of weakness and can't bring himself to face Leia again.
History has convinced him Jedi power can cause as much harm as good and he thinks if he stays out of the fight the light will rise form a more worthy source. He's been offline and off-Force for 8 years (hence Yoda "missing him") and he may not even know the state of the galaxy.

Edit: grammar and correction on Leia scene

 

You either didn't watch the film or are just stating random moments out of context to try and make a bad point.
Basically, half of these things can be figured out by paying attention in the movie and not pouting.
The rest are generally understood plot contrivances of the fantasy genre in order to move the story forward.

 

Good question. I think Moral Hazar has a point. Perhaps tossing a couple guards around could be less productive, because they would scatter and perhaps complicate the battle, for him and Rey. However, he could have considered stunning at least one or two guards, like he did to Rey in TFA while they took care of the rest, but there may be "reasons" why he couldn't

Like Moral Hazard said, they diverted all shields to the back to protect the cruiser from the barrage. We hear General Ackbar give the order. In the immediate scene, we see the TIEs destroying the bridge. No problem there, as one can assume there were no shields protecting the bridge at that time.

However, the real problem in that scene, at least for me, is how does Kylo and the other TIEs manage to hit the Cruiser several times before they divert the shields to the back, and Kylo is even able to enter the hangar and blow up the whole thing? And, yes, the shields were up at that time as we can see shots from the star destroyers being deflected by the cruiser's shields.

So, since the shields are key elements for the escape plot, either there is an explanation for this or one could assume this is a plot hole. Problem being, how are the TIEs and Kylo able to hit the cruiser several times when we can clearly see the cruiser shields were up at that time?

As Moral Hazard replied, Hux tells Kylo to pull back because they were not able to cover the TIEs anymore (because the Resistance cruisers hit full speed and were now "out of range"). And, we did see Kylo lose some of his wing support at that point.

However, my problem with that scene is why were the TIEs effective before - hitting the cruiser several times with shields up, managed to destroy the entire hangar with all the Resistance fighters in it and even destroyed the bridge - and then suddenly were easy targets for the cruiser? Were the cruiser cannons busy with something / couldn't hit the TIEs before? And if so, why exacty?

We did see the cruiser destroy a TIE when Kylo first assaulted the cruiser, so what changed in a tactical combat sense between when they first assaulted the cruiser and after they diverted power to the back shields and hit full speed?

I guess my doubt is: Why were the TIEs effective and considered "in cover" before but were not anymore after the cruiser hit full speed? In which pratical way were they covered and safer before and not any more now? The Resistance had lost all their fighters, and the cruiser only had rear shields, which would make it an even easier target now. I watched the movie four times already and I still can't find a reason why the TIEs were now in more danger than before.

Here again I feel that this could be considered a plot hole if some explanation cannot be found.

 

My guess is they were flying so close to the cruiser as to be under the shields and able to inflict damage.
Kylo looks pretty close in that shot where he does his skywalker spin!

The possibilities of cool looking Force related fight moves are endless!
Maybe they kept the straightfoward melee brawl choreography to show that Kylo can handle himself without using fancy Force tricks?

Yeah, I dunno about this one.
I didn't see the Resistance scramble or notice any active turrets.
Precaution? Procedure?

 

Sure, but this must assume fighter craft can penetrate shields, while lasers and other projectiles cannot (e.g. missiles). The Death Star 2's shield could not be penetrated by anything, and would have destroyed the Rebel fighters had Han and team not have blowed the shield generator up on Endor.

So, one has to assume that the DS2's shields were special and that the cruiser's deflector shields don't block spacecraft from entering them.

In fact, this seems to be the case for all deflector shields, at least in TLJ, as talking about the Supremacy's shields Finn says something like "We cannot get through their shields undetected. Nobody can.". So, entering the shields doesn't seem to be a problem, but entering without being detected is.

The logical conclusion then is that you can get through deflector shields (e.g. using a spacecraft), and they only block lasers, and possibly missiles. I can see that, but one has to wonder why isn't ramming more of a thing, since shields seem to be useless against large objects.

PS: You see, back in the day I played a lot of X-Wing and Tie Fighter, PC flight simulator games, and in those games you had to bring shields down before any attempt at inflicting damage or destroying the ships was made. I guess this is not how it works for the movies then, canon-wise.

If it's precaution, what changed since the assault commenced? What kind of "cover" or support was the FO fleet providing while they were in range that they could not provide anymore? Precaution being the argument doesn't seem to make much sense in this regard, since nothing seems to have changed from a defense point of view (and remember that the cruiser is even more fragile now, and can be attacked from a wider range since only the back is protected).

Retreating by procedure? It didn't seem to be the case by Hux's urge for Kylo to come back, but more like they were worried and it was more like a precaution, but again, precaution against what tactical change? What defensive support was lost? I'm not saying it couldn't have been the case, it's just that I don't get what that could be.

And, since we are at it, and since we can assume spacecraft can penetrate shields, why didn't the FO just launch more fighters to finish it off? The Resistance didn't have any fighters at that point.


I liked the combat scenes in general, but can't help to feel that they were a bit too heavy-handed on the script to make sure the whole chase plot worked. Not knowing why the TIEs had to retreat is one case.

 

That's what I'm guessing.

Ha, me too!
Memory lane...



It was adjusting the shields in the X-wing series that made me wonder if that was what the cruiser had done. (I missed the dialogue of Ackbar...4 TIMES!)

 

Same here! Hearing Ackbar's order made me remember the countless times I had to divert shields while playing X-Wing. Those were the days. How about that mission where you needed to take down the Star Destroyer's shield generator towers, so you could bring the SD's shields down so you could blow it up? Made you appreciate that ROTJ scene where they destroy the shield generators of the super star destroyer 100x more.

It's quite easy to miss Ackbar's dialogue in TLJ, or that battle dialogue for that matter (e.g. Hux urging Kylo to retreat is another case). It took me a couple more viewings to figure out what was happening And, as you can see there's still stuff I haven't figure out yet (e.g. why did the TIEs had to retreat).

By the way, thanks a lot for replying. You helped me figure out the shields issue, and I'm a bit more relieved to understand that it's cannon for spacecraft to be able to penetrate shields now, so I can appreciate Kylo's assault scene better.

 

Classic.
Seeing the TIE defender come to life on Rebels was a nice throwback.
I've got TIE Fighter on my hard drive but haven't been able assign a controller properly.
I don't game much these days but there's no way I'm playing it with a mouse again like I did in the nineties!

Me too.
There's so much to unpack in TLJ.
No wonder I felt a little nauseous after my first viewing - I had just consumed sooo much!

In any case there's more comprehension holes for me than plot holes.

 

@greenbalrog
I came across this handy 5min vid that nicely sums up the in-universe physics of SW space battles.

Basically it seems that at a certain distance energy becomes ineffective against shields.
Also a large enough mass at an appropriate speed can penetrate most shields (except those generated by powerful planetary defenses in close proximity).

I like how TPTB have managed to define GFFA physics in a way that maintains the aesthetic of pre-21st Century Naval and Air Force battles to play out in outer space.

via

 

Wow, that's an amazing find @Moral Hazard, thanks for remembering this and for sharing !

This explains how fighters could penetrate some types of shields. However, one has to say that it can become a bit confusing, not to say convenient for some types of shields to be able to deflect everything (energy and matter) while some can only deflect energy. I can understand and appreciate that. However, after having seen Rogue One and seen those X-Wings blown up to pieces when hitting the planetary shield, or Lando ordering the fighers to pull off when attacking the Death Star 2, one has to wonder. And, let's not forget about Hoth's shield, that could withstand any bombardment to the base but in that case could be penetrated by physical landing forces.

So, ships' shields only seem to be effective against energy hits and can let fighters pass through. But then, why aren't missiles used much more? They are also "fast-moving" matter, like fighters, with explosive warheads. I remember from my X-Wing games days, that fighters couldn't pass through ships' shields and missiles and proton torpedoes couldn't also penetrate shields, so why was that then and not now ("fast-moving" matter does penetrate in the movies)? I guess the Star Wars universe has just become too big now and too diverse for us to make sense of it all, and for everything to be coherent.

So, big shields supported by planetary shield generators seem to be effective against both energy and matter (Rogue One and Death Star 2). However, that didn't seem to be the case for Hoth's shield, which was also supported by powerful planetary defenses. That one could deflect any bombardment (energy-based only perhaps?), but could be permeated by physical objects (AT-ATs landing).


Also, this video still doesn't explain why the TIE fighters had to retreat, at least from my understanding. Why did Kylo and the TIEs had to retreat? Yes, the star destroyers' laser cannons would be out of range from that point forward, so they couldn't provide cover to the TIEs, as Hux tells Kylo when he ordered his retreat. But, cover from what? The Resistance had no fighters left as the hangar with all the Resistance fighters was destroyed in Kylo's attack run.

Check this clip until 3:49:
"If you can manage to scrap and entire capital ship fighter escort, it's essentially a sitting duck"

I know very few people care about the details and the minutia of all these little things, but I'd be very interested in reading or watching an explanation for all the events of the space battles of the TLJ. Some things already have good explanations, or at least good attempts. However, I still don't get why did Kylo and the TIEs had to retreat at that point from a tactical point of view. Because, if they did not, I'm sure they (and any possible fighter re-inforcements) could have taken down those 3 cruisers quite easily. I mean, they could do it in ROTJ, they took down the super star destroyer, and there were many enemy fighters hanging around in that case. I'm afraid that if there's no explanation for this I guess this could be considered a plot hole, as this defies the space battle tactical logic.

Check also this clip until 4:02:
"Like there was virtually no danger for Kylo and his wingmen to destroy the Raddus' bridge"

 

This has been an issue for me too.

I have irrational love for that game.

 

I hear a lot of "plot holes", and they just aren't. Fo example, the hyperspace traking. There is a clear difference between a tracking system and a homing beacon. A homing beacon requires a physical transceiver to be placed on the object being tracked. However a tracking system can be used without a transceiver. Which has not happened. ANH, AOTC, they used homing devises planted on the Falcon and Slave I.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 22, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 22, 2018 ---

Furthermore in TESB Captain Needa was chasing the Falcon. He exclaimed Track them, they may come for another pass. Then the technician says, captain Needa the ship no longer appears on our scopes. So the assumed they jumped into lightspeed, proving they did not have the technology to track in hyperspace.

 

Plus, the fact that Rogue One has a "miss it and you blink" easter egg where Jyn discovers the Empire is developing hyperspace tracking tech.

Not difficult to assume the First Order adapted that tech.


edit: "miss it and you blink"? Wow, I need coffee...

 

Pointing out plot holes, a.k.a. "Cinemasins," is a baaad way to critique a film. Always.

 

I LOATHE cinemasins. Maclunkey LOATHE.
Hack blast youtubers who dont even pay attention to the movie 95% of the time which would answer their "sins" .
Just leaving this here so people can cleanse their palate if they do end up on a cinemasins video.

 

Cinemasins is jaded clickbait.

Just to infuriate myself, I watched the first few minutes of the A New Hope one.

Almost all of the sins are dumb, but they're also contradictory.







Literally consecutive sins point out that the droids are moving slowly, then all of a sudden the Jawas have to be Barry Allen to catch up with the droids, because these hacks have no imagination and try waaayy to hard to be funny. Really disappointed in Kevin Smith for agreeing to appear with them in that episode, by the way.


And you can absolutely see the effect they've had on the general populace with how people just can't freakin enjoy stuff these days, The Last Jedi included.

"Why didn't Admiral Holdo indulge Poe?" and "Why did the Resistance bombs drop in space?" are just two examples of fans absolutely refusing to think for themselves in lieu of wanting to point out their own perceived plot holes. It's so ridiculously cringey, not to mention damaging for pop culture in general.