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Why a "Gray" Force, if true, will ruin Star Wars and the Sequels

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by YubNubBub, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    You're splitting semantic hairs here. Whether the word "grey" appears in the Mortis arc or not, the simple fact of the matter is that there IS that third thing there, within the newly established SW canon, and it is neither the light nor the dark, but rather a vital balance point between the two that embodies aspects of both.

    We have no idea yet as to what they've got planned for The Last Jedi, other than the tantalizing bits and pieces we saw in the trailer. I personally don't think they'll necessarily use the term "Grey", and IMHO it doesn't really matter what terms they use. But given what we know about Luke and what we saw him go through in the OT, I cannot imagine him suddenly just giving up and saying, "Screw it, the dark side wins." If he's saying that he believes it's time for the Jedi to end, then I think it' almost certainly connected to that "third thing".

    There HAS to be some sort of resolution. The perennial struggle for control between the dark and light sides of the Force has devastated the galaxy again and again. And that cycle will simply continue unless that third thing (whatever it may end up being called) intervenes and breaks that cycle.

    It may very well be that the key to the problem is the obsession with control. Obviously, the Sith are obsessed with control of others, but as we saw in the PT the Jedi were blinded by their own obsession with control over themselves. There was a kernel of truth to what Palpatine said in ROTS when he spoke of the "dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi." Though he was speaking of that view limiting personal power, the truth was that it was the rigidity of the Jedi that created the blind spot that Palpatine was able to exploit.

    The Jedi have, in their own way, just as much of a drive to change the natural order of things as the Sith do. Their attachment to non-attachment, as embodied by the prohibition on Jedi marrying and raising families (a clear alteration of the natural order of things,) is what led directly to one of the greatest of all Jedi turning against the Jedi Order and helping the Sith to gain power over the entire galaxy.

    As for the "Chosen One" prophecy, even that seemed to be a point of attachment for the Jedi, which contributed to the Jedi Order's blind spot. Indeed, Yoda himself ultimately realized that they may have been misreading that prophecy all along. They were waiting for a Chosen One to come along and defeat the Sith on behalf of the Jedi, and they thought they knew who that Jedi was. In all likelihood, the prophecy pointed to something else entirely.

    And we have no idea what Luke may have learned from the Jedi texts he has on Ahch-To. That may add context to this whole thing. But again, if Luke has come to the conclusion that the Jedi need to end, it's not likely to simply be a product of the petulance of a heartbroken old man. There is something else at work there that has shown Luke that the way of the Jedi has, for some reason, become a liability. And I think it's reasonable to suspect that it's that "third thing" that has given him the perspective to see the dead end that the Jedi way has become.

    Again, it doesn't matter whether or not the word "Grey" is actually used in the film to describe that third thing. But I think it's pretty obvious that we're looking at a manifestation of the balance point between light and dark that is neither one, and yet embodies facets of both. HOW it embodies facets of both remains to be seen. I doubt it's as simple as being half Jedi and half Sith, as some have speculated. I suspect that it reflects the nature of the Force itself, and the natural order of things - not the Sith obsession with control over others, or the Jedi obsession with control over themselves, but the Force as it truly is.

    "The strongest stars have hearts of kyber..."
     
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  2. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    But the OP was against the entire idea of a sequel trilogy to begin with............................ :p:p:p:p:p
     
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  3. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    There was a middle representing balance notice the light acted to preserve the balance and the dark acted to destroy it.

    Repeating this when Anakin fell he was an agent of imbalance but restored when turned back to the light.
     
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  4. Teemto Pagalies

    Teemto Pagalies Rebelscum

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    [​IMG]
     
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  5. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I think this will allow for more complex stories in the future, too.
    We really don't have many villainous Jedi in canon, and arguably in EU either. Seems to be that whenever a Jedi goes bad, they become a Sith.

    By shifting more to the middle, we can tell more mature stories.
    For instance, Mace Windu is considered by some to be more "gray" than a typical Jedi, in part because of his attempt to take Palpatine's life. Now, the Jedi would view this as wrong- and they can go ahead and enjoy life under the Empire (or, lack of life as it were) for 30 years, because Windu could've ended it right there if he'd had his choice.

    Even more complex could be a Jedi who taps into the light side of the force, and maybe even has altruistic intentions, but does so at the expense of others' well being and safety. Meanwhile, there could be a more Sith-like character who actually does good (we do have some of that, at least in EU).

    Point is, "Jedi good, Sith bad" is kind of a simplistic view that lends itself to white knights in shining armor and mustache twirling villains.
    upload_2017-4-19_9-55-36.png
     
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  6. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    We can argue that the changes in the Jedi have begun the moment Yoda and Obi-Wan decided NOT to take the Skywalker children and teach them since young age. Then, in Rebels, Yoda knights Kanan who is decidedly not the Jedi of old - he has a chosen family by his side, among other things. Yoda himself have corrected his views on what the Jedi are.

    The problem is - we have no idea what Luke did or learned during these 30 years. The only thing we know is that he built the temple and thought the Jedi way and then his nephew turned to the Dark Side and destroyed it.

    While that must have seriously shaken him and made him question himself and the Jedi, I cannot see him giving up - on his friends, his family and the galaxy. There is awe in his voice when he says "It's so much bigger." There is some deeper understanding there that we cannot see. At least I hope so. I can't see Story Group ending the Jedi while not replacing it with something equally meaningful or more meaningful for the galaxy. The destruction has to end.

    What did Luke discover? What did he learn? If he wants to end the Jedi, why is he training Ray? Or mentoring her - because that's the word I saw being used by someone involved with the movie? Daisy Ridley said Luke's calling wasn't going away, so does Luke passes that to Ray? So much questions, so many possibilities.
     
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  7. Kennytime

    Kennytime Rebelscum

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    Not end, but evolve. The poem from the Journal of the Whills at the beginning of TFA novel I think spells this out....

    First comes the day
    Then comes the night.
    After the darkness
    Shines through the light.
    The difference, they say,
    Is only made right
    By the resolving of gray
    Through refined Jedi sight.

    I think it's pretty clear that in order to truly right the universe, then the gray areas need to be addressed. This will happen through the evolution of the mindset of a Jedi.
     
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  8. DarthWarEagle

    DarthWarEagle Rebel General

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    Couldn't agree more with the OP. It is just a trend these days in movies it seems. However in this case I am hoping that "the grey" is just a plot device for this movie, and that at in IX everything will sort itself back out. There is nothing good about the Sith or the dark side. That is like implying Hitler was nice to his dog, so he wasn't completely bad.
     
  9. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    This is so interesting because 'resolving of gray' does not mean 'being gray'. It means seeing the truth in situations that are not cut and dry, having more complex worldview than black and white. But, it does not take away the morality of the Jedi. If it means evolution - or going back to the source - and not erasure, it could work.
     
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  10. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    hatred isn't an action. it's a feeling.
    hatred is the gun. it requires a person to pull the trigger and make it destructive.
    anger too (and we've talked about righteous anger).

    again, look at your language.
    we're not talking about "fostering" hatred, we're talking about knowing it--understanding it (dare i say even returning from it?).

    the root of evil is ignorance.
    human beings live by necessity--that is the natural order observable in bugs and critters and even people.
    but people have the unique ability to love and feel compassion and to make sense of their world--to know it and to define things like good and evil.

    perhaps if you do not know the full depth of hatred, you cannot know the full transcendence of compassion.

    p.s. sorry for the delayed response. i'm super busy today. : o p
     
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  11. Kennytime

    Kennytime Rebelscum

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    This could actually wind up being a very relevant story considering the modern world we live in in which facts are questioned, fake news/real news, etc. We need to empower ourselves with the ability to see through the bullcrap - the grey areas - in order to see the world for what it truly is.
     
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  12. SithSorcererofdeath

    SithSorcererofdeath Rebel Official

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    IThe reason I like the Grey part of the Force is because it doesn't ruin your humanity, by eschewing attachments and natural emotions like anger. A strict adherence to the light side makes you a Vulcan wannabe, in my opinion at least in the old Republic days. I think that the Grey side could lead to moral relativism, which I'm against. But I would argue Luke never believed all anger is evil luke knew there was such a thing as rightous indignation (aka a form of anger). I guess I'm just really opposed to a narrow vision of that the light side produced through the Jedi Order. I guess at the end of the day all I have to say is
    Hail Lord Bane,Dark Lord of The Sith!!! and the last Sithari!!!!!!!
     
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  13. JayBiggS

    JayBiggS Rebel Official

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    Luke: Look, Dad. I'm not saying you have to totally stop blowing up planets and killing children. You can totally still do that. Just...maybe do it less. And why not smile a little more? Donate to the Alderaan Relief fund?
    Vader: It is too late for me, son.
    Luke: No, I know there is an equal amount of good as there is evil in you. You can still be the Anakin Skywalker you once were when you were in constant conflict between your evil side and your good side!

    It was introduced then for sure, and I hated it from the start. However since it was in a cartoon I could ignore it and hope it went away lol. It didn't and is now bleeding in to the best part of Star Wars---the films. And not only the films, but the anticipated continuation of the big three's stories after such a long wait.
     
    #73 JayBiggS, Apr 19, 2017
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  14. Enkidu

    Enkidu Rebelscum

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    That 'poem' is horrible. I defy anyone to make any real sense of it. The first four lines are a description of the natural order, but then it starts warbling on about "making it right" as though there is something wrong with night following day or with "difference" generally. "Resolving of gray" is utterly obscure as it could mean either being gray (which doesn't sound like an answer to anything), splitting gray into its constituent elements (which gets you back where you started) or peering into the grey more keenly (which might make more sense, but which would be odd given that there's no mention of grey earlier in the poem).

    If it were a real poem the words "they say" would be a fairly clear indication that the poet doesn't agree (otherwise why distance himself?), but I strongly suspect those words are just there to take up space. If this is a fair example of the Journal of the Whills I can see why it hasn't been published...
     
    #74 Enkidu, Apr 19, 2017
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  15. -Redacted-

    -Redacted- Rebel General

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    If everyone is so worried that by being grey it will have her "fall to the dark side" then how can she truly be the balance if she is.

    Because to me, the sentence "balance to the force" mean to be someone as pure as possible in the middle. can easily balance the light side and the dark.

    Now, IMHO that means to me someone who can slip into the dark side (ala Mace windu) and can stay with the light as well.
     
  16. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    You realize that the poem isn't literally referring to night and day, right?
    It's the constant conflict between the Jedi and the Sith- and yeah, from a Galactic perspective, and yeah, I think you could say there's "something wrong" with that.

    We see in the films how these wars affect the galaxy.
    We hear in KOTOR how the average galactic citizen doesn't really care for the Jedi or the Sith, and is just weary of way.
    Heck, it's in the name itself- Star Wars.

    While the Jedi and the Sith remain diametrically opposed to each other, there can never truly be peace. That's the "resolution" that must be made.
     
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  17. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    I was never a huge fan of the Mortis arc myself, truth be told. I got what Lucas and the others were going for with it, but it always felt awkward from a story perspective. It certainly wasn't a trio of episodes that had a lot of rewatch value for me.

    But for good or ill, it did bring that "third thing" into the SW canon, and Lucas himself was apparently a big part of the story conferencing that produced those episodes.

    To me, the basic concept is sound, though. Light and darkness are human constructs. The Force itself is neither light nor dark - it simply is. Life and death are both a part of the Force, as Yoda reminded Luke just before he passed away.

    Where I think a lot of folks get into a view of this that doesn't feel right to them is when they try to break it down mathematically. It's not about being equal parts Jesus and Hitler. That doesn't fit at all with the nature of the Force as it's been explained all along. As Yoda said, "Life creates it, makes it grow." And yet, it can't all just be endlessly expanding life. Death, as we've seen, is also a part of the natural order of things.

    Both Jedi and Sith, in their own ways, attempt to resist the natural order of things. The Jedi do so with the best of intentions, of course, and in their way they are closer to the rhythms of the Force and the life that sustains it. But it's when the Jedi Order compels its members to live in ways that seem to run counter to nature that some Jedi begin to have questions that allow an enterprising Sith lord to get inside their heads. I know I keep coming back to the Jedi prohibition on marriage, but that was a big part of what put Anakin in a mindset that Palpatine was so easily able to exploit. I expect we'll learn that Ben Solo was similarly nagged by doubts about Jedi rules or values that gave Snoke his opening to turn him to the dark side.

    Let's imagine a light Force user who does not follow the path of the Jedi, but who instead serves the light side simply by allowing the Force to guide them. They embrace the life that creates the Force and makes it grow, as Yoda described it. They aren't part of an organization of Force users, as the Jedi were, but instead simply go where the Force leads them, like a rōnin or a knight-errant. In this regard, they wouldn't really be a "light Force user", but simply a "Force user".

    Would they be considered half Jedi and half Sith, equal parts good and evil? Of course not. They would simply be serving the Force, and by extension all living beings, rather than serving a governmental body or a Jedi council. And as such, they would probably tend to be a bit better suited for dealing with dark side users like the Sith - especially if we consider that the Force had volition of its own and could act through them.

    Luke says that he believes that it's time for the Jedi to end - not (as far as we currently know, anyway) that he believes that it's time to accept that the dark side has won.
     
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  18. atreides602

    atreides602 Rebelscum

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    There could be gray jedi if thats where Luke is going ( i doubt it tough) , but i don't see how can he make the sith go gray , you can't tame a sith lord.
     
  19. CaptainPhastastic

    CaptainPhastastic Rebel Official

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    Exactllllyyyyy. The Jedi are not going to "end." They're going to evolve. Evolve to something better; crusaders of peace and truth that don't see the world in black & white, dark & light. The universe isn't that simple. But it needs someone of special abilities to navigate through the murkiness and the ambiguities of life and maintain the balance: of light and dark; of peace and war; of hope and fear. It isn't an easy task. And that is the new way of the Jedi. To act as refined eyes to see the truths of the universe. It's not about the Jedi suddenly doing evil deeds just to be "grey." It's them understanding that the universe isn't that simple; the Force isn't that simple; sentient beings aren't simple or easy to understand or predict; and they will act as defenders of balance and guide others through this and to maintain the balance rather than act piously and sanctimoniously and crusade against what they perceive as "evil."
     
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  20. Enkidu

    Enkidu Rebelscum

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    Yes, I do realise that. The problem is that using the turn from day to night as a metaphor for the shift in dominance from Jedi to Sith only works if those two things are similar. If you say Jedi-Sith-Jedi-Sith is like Day-Night-Day-Night you can't then expect the reader to see it as a problem as you have essentially just made it clear that it is part of the natural order.
     
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