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Why a "Gray" Force, if true, will ruin Star Wars and the Sequels

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by YubNubBub, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I wonder whether Yoda's words there were more about the inevitable and lasting consequences of going down the dark path rather than it literally meaning you can never return from the Dark Side. I mean, Vader even says that Kenobi "once thought as you do" and we see in ROTS that despite the evils Kenobi knows Anakin has committed, he still tries to bring him back.

    I think this is Yoda telling Luke that if he goes down the dark path then bad things will happen that will forever alter his destiny. I mean, Anakin did turn back to the good side but his actions prior to his redemption continued to echo on. It of course resulted in his own death but beyond that his grandson followed in his footsteps and the Empire (that he helped create) has been reborn through the FO.

    Perhaps this is the thing that is bigger than the balance? The balance is fleeting but to truly bring peace, one has to put an end to the on going cycle created by those who serve the dark side. So for example, Anakin brought balance but his evil deeds lived on. What Rey has to do, and I've always thought this, is not just bring balance but truly put an end to the cycle of evil created by Vader.

    This again for me is an indicator that we will see an end to the Skywalker family and the story that has plagued (PLAGUED) them and the Galaxy for decades. Then we can have a truly new story set up in the future that isn't about Vader and family.
     
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  2. dewi

    dewi Rebel Official

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    "Why did the angry Jedi cross the road?"
    "To get to the dark side!"

    I wonder if being one with the Force means staying on the road, living in the present, following the path to your destiny. Instead of choosing to get off the road and remain on either side of the road, you would be centered and focused, occasionaly stepping off the road if needed.

    The Jedi Order and the Sith Order never fully understood the use of the Force, imo.
     
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  3. SithSorcererofdeath

    SithSorcererofdeath Rebel Official

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    I agree with everything you just said,but in my view that has nothing to do with the Jedi or the Sith, but instead withe The Rebel Alliance and The Empire. (Yes I know Saw Garrera but in my view he was right to be miltitant). Or resistance versus First Order, that is the real Good versus Evil in SW. It's tyranny versus Freedom and Liberty (not in a silly sense), it has nothing to do with Demons versus Saints at least in this fictional setting. Yes in my view Star Wars is an inherently political setting, might be an unpopular opinion but I think it's hard to deny.
     
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  4. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    I think that by placing the philosohy of the Jedi in terms of light and dark and I don't think its unreasonable to suggest good and evil as partipants and champions for political causes in the films themselves says something about tyranny and freedom. Notice that so far there haven't been any darkside rebels or Sith who valued any freedom beyond their own.
     
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  5. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

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    @Moral Hazard I think I just see us more on an apathetic path to a sci-fi-esque distopia of sameness. Or maybe a self-glorifying, hedonistic Rome-esque slow burn destruction. We live in a world where it seems the unwashed masses are hypnotized by Kim Kardashian's bum...we can't be on the right track.
    Now flip-flop time (one of my specialties). I like what you say about some innate or ingrained widespread moral norms. I sometimes believe that we're on the rightish path. That humans are good...But I change my mind a lot. Wishywashy! Probably very few people are truely evil or bad. On the same coin, probably very few people are truly good. Most of us are probably in the middle somewhere. George says of the Force that the Lightside is selfless, and the Darkside is selfish. I think most of us are somewhere in the middle. And I really like what @Dark Toilet said about "grey" being the "conflict" between. Something I think we all deal with to some degree. I wouldn't mind if we just lost the term "grey" as applies to the Force. There is light and dark and an ever present conflict between them.

    ...of course the Light and Dark may be less an aspect of the Force and more an aspect of the User. There is the Force or Power...you can use that power for good or bad. Grab too much power too quickly...you're probably going to end up with some corruption. But even if you're using it for good, you got keep an eye on it because "power currupts" and what not. The power is not good or bad, it's how the User wields it that is good or bad...maybe. Now I'm sounding like college student relativist! Dang it!

    -Captain Rambly McDisjointed
     
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  6. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    The nature of the light side is balance. This is because good and evil will always exist and that this is the natural order of things. The light side is about compassion, selflessness and love - thus it cannot ever seek anything beyond the natural balance. As soon as someone tries to force their own agenda or obliterate a rival against the will of the force, they will be using the dark side.

    As Lucas pointed out - the Sith (those that use the dark side) are like a cancer. They seek to do unnatural things for their own gain. The Jedi listen to the will of the force and help maintain the balance. The problem with the PT Jedi wasn't that they turned evil but they became closed off from he living force, over reliant upon their power and position and thus were easily manipulated by the Sith. Qui Gon saw this. Yoda eventually did. And the order changed - they trained Luke and he did the right thing.
     
  7. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    This point deoesn't add much to the discourse but it would be a shame if more people don't see it.
     
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  8. Dark Toilet

    Dark Toilet Force Sensitive

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    Thanks... As someone above noted, Obi Wan said that "the Emperor has already won" if Luke either cannot, or as @master_shaitan says, will not at least consider the need to, kill his own father. Of course, like all good Star Wars stuff, there is some ambiguity there. But since the idea that Obi Wan and Yoda thought it was too late for Vader, as he himself and the Emperor thought, fits better in my own head canon and informs me about where I think all of this "moral ambiguity" in the ST is going, I am sticking to the idea that they wanted Vader dead.

    Hey, serious but not so serious question here: You use CNTRL+C and CNTRL+V a lot, don't you? If not, I feel bad for how often you have to re-type what seems like alot of the same ideas over and over again! ;) Just teasing... mostly.
     
    #148 Dark Toilet, Apr 21, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
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  9. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    The only thing I've gotten from this conversation today is that I've begun to almost think that ROTJ's script wasn't very airtight.

    (pwned)

    (Also, is there an 'Admiral Raddatz Needs an Emoji Advocacy Group?)
     
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  10. SithSorcererofdeath

    SithSorcererofdeath Rebel Official

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    You can theory craft all you want, ladies and gentlemen, but it is a hard to deny fact that the Jedi Order was a flawed organization the council were really just pawns to the Republic Senate, being a good Follower of the Light Side (ie real Jedi, forget about grey for a moment.) is not the same as being bound to the Republic and "Jedi" Order.
    Luke was a better light side user/Jedi than any one who threw away there principles by going to fight in the trap that was the Clone Wars.
     
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  11. Teemto Pagalies

    Teemto Pagalies Rebelscum

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    I'm not sure if this has been said or not, but I'll just chip in my 2 cents:

    As seen in Rebels, it is hinted by none other than Obi Wan that the "chosen one who brings balance to the force" could be LUKE, not Anakin (or thus indirectly Anakin, as Luke's father). As such, "bringing balance to the force" might meaning something completely different from what the former jedi council believed i.e. the jedi kick some sith ass and end them for good. That is doomed to failure. "Balance" could actually mean -the grey-, the path that LUKE as THE CHOSEN ONE has been on to for the last 30 years since we saw him on The Return of the Jedi. So the saga ends with "balance", which is something that doesn't involve any sith-jedi dichotomy, but an overall different approach to the force: "so much bigger!"...
     
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  12. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    George said that Anakin is the Chosen One and like it or not, he fulfilled the prophecy by killing the Emperor and ending the Sith.
     
  13. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    It all depends on where the story goes and if its good.

    I've made the comparison before, but getting rid of the Jedi and Sith (Sith are already gone) could be similar to when Dragon Lance got rid of the gods and arcane magic and replaced it with mysticism - the setting lost a lot of what made it great in the first place.

    Or if we get a completely new status quo - no Republic or any galaxy wide government but many different regions (planets, systems etc...) with many different variations of Jedi/Sith, some independent and some connected to these governments/regions, we could get a very exciting/promising new status quo in Star Wars that will/could lead very new stories being told.
     
  14. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Ha! I guess this makes me Chief Scribe of The Long & Disjointed Ramblings - just call me TLDR for short. :rolleyes:
    This alludes to some interesting similarities and differences between Sith/Jedi. Both camps can be guilty or imposing their own will, Forcing outcomes, and rationalising their own questionable actions as "jusitifed for the greater good" (think Qui-Gon manipulating Gungan minds to accumulate goods or cheating Watto under the guise of fairplay).

    I guess the big difference lies in that the Jedi "grey areas" seem more defensible because they spend so much time conditioning and calibrating themselves to compassion, selflessness, and harm reduction. When they do end up risking morally ambiguous behavior for the sake of "peace" or "the greater good" there is a much higher chance it will actually result in greater good than harm.

    Darksider's selfish focus ensures any claims of "peace" and "greater good" risk being cheap rationalisations motivated by exerting power-over others for personal gain
    Perhaps this prophecy was divined by the infamous, far-sighted, and now immortal Jedi Lukus-Philm who possessed the wisdom to forsee the likelihood of continous stories where multiple protagonists are repeatedly "chosen" to "restore balance"!
     
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  15. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    I get why people say this but it always feels to extreme of a view. When I listen to Obi-Wan in ANH the Republic was as much an ideal as its Jedi Knight guardians. Very Camelot and the round table. So while I see flaws in the PT Jedi I see good jedi for the most part that had some problems but by in large were tragically beaten. But I tend to take Yoda and Obi-Wan as reliable trachers.
     
  16. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I guess I'm just hopeful that one day my words of wisdom will make it through your thick skull. :p

    I have had to retype a lot of this stuff unfortunately though, as every day there seems to be a new thread based on entirely vacuous ideas about grey Jedi and whatnot.
     
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  17. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Force Sensitive

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    Those who wish to embody the Force,
    should embrace all things.
    To embrace all things means first
    that one holds no anger or resistance
    toward any idea or thing, living or dead, formed or formless.
    Acceptance is the very essence of the Force.
    To embrace all things
    means that one rids oneself of any concept of separation;
    male and female, self and other, life and death.
    Foregoing antagonism and separation,
    one enters into the harmonious Oneness of ALL things.

    ----------------------------------------------------


    In harmony with the Force,
    the sky is clear and spacious,
    the universe is solid and full,
    all living things flourish together,
    content with the way they are,
    endlessly repeating themselves,
    endlessly renewed.

    When man interferes with the Force,
    the sky becomes filthy,
    the universe becomes depleted,
    the equilibrium crumbles,
    creatures become extinct.


    The Master views the parts with compassion,
    because he understands the whole.
    His constant practice is humility.
    He doesn't glitter like a jewel
    but lets himself be shaped by the Force,
    as rugged and common as stone.


    -- Chapters taken from Taoism (edited SW style! :))​

    "The Master views the parts with compassion, because he understands the whole." - these are the kind of teachings I believe Luke will convey onto Rey. About seeing the bigger picture. More than just the Light Side v Dark Side. I believe this is all in relation to Rey's eventual confrontation with Kylo Ren. This is what his teachings will essentially impact upon.

    The "it's so much bigger" line is possibly him trying to open Rey's mind for her to perceive a broader spectrum of the Force. In the end, like I said, this story will have Rey confronting Kylo again. Luke must know this. But does Rey see anything other than a "monster" at this point? Does she see anything other than the Dark Side within Kylo? Does she perceive his conflict?

    Echoing some points already made, to me, in terms of the Force, a strict/rigid "light v dark" paradigm can breed division and ignorance. When you combine division + ignorance + ego, chances are conflict will arise. History has shown us that and will continue to show us that. We seen that lesson especially with Luke in the OT. The Jedi, Obi Wan and Yoda, only seen the Dark within Vader. They didn't comprehend Vader's internal conflict. The grey. It took Luke to see the Light within Vader. He had shown enlightenment beyond the Jedi. Beyond his years. Luke needs to pass this message onto Rey. To see the bigger picture by letting go of her anger and hate.

    I don't think Luke will actively wield the grey and I don't think that's Rey's journey. I think it's more about perceiving it like Luke did in the OT, whereas Yoda and Obi-Wan did not. To unify the two sides of the Force, maybe you have to recognise the conflict (the grey) that exists.

    However, it's tough to know what Luke truly thinks though and there are still too many questions. But, in another thread, @master_shaitan was talking about Luke's key journey in the OT and he said something I think is very important to where he's currently at now...

    I think this is very true. From the very beginning, his entire life has been shaped by the actions of his father. His entire life has been about rectifying the mistakes his father made (but also building on his redemption). Luke had put the burden of mending the legacies of his father and the Jedi on himself. This meant more to him than just simply following the will of the Force. It was very personal.

    The TLJ trailer has shown us that the shadow of his father continues to loom over him...

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The resurrection of Vader was probably his darkest fear coming true, and I don't think he's fully recovered yet from the horror of what Ben did. I don't think you fully can, but that must've been the moment the Jedi ended for Luke - when his own nephew, the shadow of Vader, destroyed everything he had built his life around. The fact the Sequels have gone to this event twice now in flashbacks, once in TFA and once again for TLJ, demonstrates just how critical a moment this was in terms of changing everything. When Rey meets the legendary Luke, the hero of the OT, she won't find what she was initially expecting, but maybe a man who has suffered from a crisis of faith. In the process of Luke letting go of his attachment to the Jedi, maybe he has let go of too much. Maybe Luke doesn't know what he should do and that's why he went into exile, but Rey handing him his lightsaber might've ignited his connection to the will of the Force once again, showing him what he must do. And I'm not talking about Luke must kill Kylo, but he must face the shadow of his father once again.

    I was reading some of the ROTS novel the other day and there was a passage about Obi-Wan's journey that struck me in terms of how it relates to Luke's. Obi-Wan's relationship with Qui-Gon was the type of relationship that Luke never got to have with his own father. Also, Obi-Wan's relationship with Anakin was likely very similar to that between Luke and Ben:

    Jedi Master. General in the Grand Army of the Republic. Member of the Jedi Council. And yet, inside, he feels like he's none of these things. Inside, he still feels like a Padawan.

    It is a truism of the Jedi Order that a Jedi Knight's education truly begins only when he becomes a Master: that everything important about being a Master is learned from one's student. Obi-Wan feels the truth of this every day.

    He sometimes dreams of when he was a Padawan in fact as well as feeling; he dreams that his own Master, Qui-Gon Jinn, did not die at the plasma-fueled generator core in Theed. He dreams that his Master's wise guiding hand is still with him. But Qui-Gon's death is an old pain, one with which he long ago came to terms. A Jedi does not cling to the past.

    And Obi-Wan Kenobi knows, too, that to have lived his life without being Master to Anakin Skywalker would have left him a different man. A lesser man.

    Anakin has taught him so much.

    Obi-Wan sees so much of Qui-Gon in Anakin that sometimes it hurts his heart; at the very least, Anakin mirrors Qui-Gon's flair for the dramatic, and his casual disregard for rules. Training Anakin—and fighting beside him, all these years—has unlocked something inside Obi-Wan. It's as though Anakin has rubbed off on him a bit, and has loosened that clenched-jaw insistence on absolute correctness that Qui-Gon always said was his greatest flaw. Obi-Wan Kenobi has learned to relax.

    He smiles now, and sometimes even jokes, and has become known for the wisdom gentle humor can provide. Though he does not know it, his relationship with Anakin has molded him into the great Jedi Qui-Gon always said he might someday be.

    It is characteristic of Obi-Wan that he is entirely unaware of this. Being named to the Council came as a complete surprise; even now, he is sometimes astonished by the faith the Jedi Council has in his abilities, and the credit they give to his wisdom.

    Greatness was never his ambition. He wants only to perform whatever task he is given to the best of his ability.

    He is respected throughout the Jedi Order for his insight as well as his warrior skill. He has become the hero of the next generation of Padawans; he is the Jedi their Masters hold up as a model. He is the being that the Council assigns to their most important missions. He is modest, centered, and always kind.

    He is the ultimate Jedi.

    And he is proud to be Anakin Skywalker's best friend.

    Luke would've devoted everything to his students. That was his calling. That was his love. He would've been their hero. The fact Ben destroyed everything, repeating the actions of Vader, destroying the legacies of the Jedi and his father, will have utterly, utterly devastated him.

    We may find a broken Luke in EPVIII and Rey may not find what she hoping for. Initially, Luke might not even be ready to train Rey (if his past still haunts him too much), but I do believe Rey will eventually become the new Jedi (TFA was all about her journey and her first steps towards becoming one). Maybe it's Luke who needs the guidance more. It may be a reversal of roles in that Rey offers the true inspiration. Luke did search the galaxy to seek understanding, but maybe Rey is the light Luke needs to restore his faith in the Jedi/Light Side and stop him from dwelling on the past.

    Part of me desperately wishes for Luke in VIII to meet the Jedi Force ghosts of Yoda and so on, to have a heart-to-heart talk with them and for him to reveal his true feelings about the Jedi, Ben, Rey, his father etc that he might not have shared with anybody close to him yet. An emotional scene depicting something such as this...

    [​IMG]
     
    #157 Fuzzball, Apr 22, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
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  18. Darth Garth

    Darth Garth Rebel General

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    I always thought that a character's motivations are driven by more then just dark side and light side. I think the grey area of the force opens up a lot of story and character possibilities; we could have a very interesting Star Wars film to watch.
     
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  19. michaelibre

    michaelibre Rebel Trooper

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    I don't like the name Grey but for me it makes all sense. It is deeply spiritual as there is no other way anyway. We can walk around a lifetime running behind illusory enjoyments but real peace is archived in making inner accomplishments. If the star wars saga can inspire people to understand this fundamental truth, then it would be for me the greatest gift Disney can do.
    Once the real inner war is undone, then there is no need of a war outside to reflect this inner turmoil. The Bendu says it as many old traditions on earth tell and this is the real essence.
    Please just get rid of this Grey name as it doesn't sound nice at all...
     
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  20. Sage Ehlers

    Sage Ehlers Rebel Trooper

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    I think Luke is merely referring to the Prequels-style Jedi, with wacked up systems.
     
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