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SPECULATION Why are Rey and Ren so powerful?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by master_shaitan, Oct 12, 2017.

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Why are Rey and Ren so powerful?

  1. Skywalker bloodline

    20 vote(s)
    40.0%
  2. The Force has chosen them

    13 vote(s)
    26.0%
  3. "Volcanic Force eruption!"

    6 vote(s)
    12.0%
  4. Rey is a new chosen one

    1 vote(s)
    2.0%
  5. Other

    10 vote(s)
    20.0%
  1. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi Commander

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    In the trailer for The Last Jedi, Luke says of, presumably, Rey:

    “I’ve seen this raw strength only once before, it didn’t scare me enough then. It does now.” And Snoke speaks of, again presumably Ren, having a raw untamed power.

    It strikes me that this indicates that the two have a power we haven't witnessed before in Star Wars. Even with Anakin, he had power as a small boy, but it wasn't until he had a lot of training that he became more powerful. And just look at how Rey, so soon after discovering the Force, is so much further ahead than the heroes we have seen previously (Anakin/Luke). Ren is catching laser blasts mid air!

    The Force Awakens, allegedly refers to the idea that the cosmic Force has been dormant (to those who can sense it) and a disturbance was felt when Rey accessed its power. However, it was also said by JJ that "Kylo Ren is the awakening of the Dark Side and Rey is the awakening of the light". This again links into the original trailer for TFA where Snoke says "There has been an awakening. The Dark Side...and the light". We're also told that the Force awakens within Rey.

    Many people, understandably, put these special powers down to the idea that Rey and Ben are both Solo's/Skywalker's - and thus have the Skywalker bloodline power. But it strikes me that this doesn't fully explain it. For as I say, Luke speaks about "Rey's" (and Ren's) power as if it is something beyond anything he or "we" have experienced before. At the end of the day, Luke is a Skywalker of course - he would've had this same power - so why he is so amazed by Rey's ability? And why is Rey becoming so powerful so quickly?

    Again, I think it alludes to something else being at play here that links into whatever the hell it is Snoke is up to and why Luke is researching the history of the Force and Jedi. And even with Kylo Ren - is his power so great just because he is a Skywalker or is there something more to it? Is it that the Force, for whatever reason, awoke within these two individuals - providing them with a power we haven't experienced before? And for what reason? Is the clue in the word "dormant" - in that the Force hasn't been accessed for so long and then when it is, it erupts like a volcano within those capable of accessing its power? It might be worth keeping in mind that Luke seems to have lost faith in the Force and with it his connection...

    Other questions that tie into this would be:

    What did it mean for the cosmic force to be dormant?
    Did this dormancy impact upon other Force users connection to the Force?
    Why did the Force become dormant after balance was restored?
    When did the dormancy begin?

    So what explains this power?
     
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  2. Lukee1811

    Lukee1811 Rebelscum

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    Some very good questions you raise. My guess is as good as yours. I don't know. The basic explanation is an out-of-universe one. They wanted to have a new story that differs itself from the stories of the OT and PT. So they needed new heroes, or chosen ones if you will. It could be a play at the Dark/Light metaphor - like ying and yang. But this alone sounds too cheesy.

    As for in universe:

    Ben's Force powers can be explained by his Skywalker heritage to a degree. I was long conviced Rey was a Skywalker too. But in the trailers so far, Luke seems to treat her like a complete stranger. And even if Luke wanted to hide his daughter for a reason, I don't think he would give her this cold welcome. At this point, it would be idiotic of him to be so grumpy at her, if she was his daughter. She could still be a Skywalker though, even if Luke's not her dad...However, I digress.

    Probably Snoke and Luke both know something about this awakening. Just like Snoke, Luke must have felt it. Snoke wants to use it to his advantage, but Luke is freaked out by it and also depressed about his students getting murdered, making him question if it was right to start a new order. I don't think, however, that he has lost his connection to the Force. Luke is still very much in the game, if he wasn't, he would not be hanging out at an ancient Jedi temple surrounded by Porgs and Caretakers, guarding the Force Tree. I think he is trying to figure out this endless cycle of the light/dark fighting, because he is well aware of Anakin's path, then his and now Ben's. The Journal of the Whills will probably connect to this story arc. Luke may after all stop whining, if Ben turns back to the light (which I now think will happen), or at least abandons Snoke, thus showing him that not all is lost. This would also be a good opportunity to definitively set up Rey and Kylo (Ben) as the new heroes, because they would now be on one side - confirming JJ's words they are two sides of the same piece. It may after all be Rey who helps Luke, just like he helps her, by training her, after initial doubts.

    Maybe also Maz Kanata knows something, as she was very quick to point out to Rey that the Lightsaber was talking to her. I'm glad we still have something to wonder about and it's not at all clear. I think we will get a satisfactory partial answer to all of this in TLJ. I think we will see the vision from TFA completed by adding new shots to it (Luke rising from the rubble with his robotic hand visible), when Rey touches the Force tree. The imagery from the trailer was very similar to the one from ESB, when Luke enters the cave. This might give us more hints to Rey's identity, her connection to Kylo and her relevance for the Awakening.
     
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  3. Ammianus Marcellinus

    Ammianus Marcellinus Rebel Official

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    As Lucas said, the new trilogy would be about the next generation of Skywalkers and the theme of moral ambiguity and choice. The two young Skywalker's are confronted with their own overwhelming power. How will they use it? For good? For bad? What is good and bad?

    I also think that the idea of the chosen one might be interpreted differently after The Last Jedi: more like chosen ones. Ying and Yang........ a balance.
     
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  4. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi Commander

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    But again, why so powerful? Why has Luke only seen this power once before - and not in himself or indeed his father?
     
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  5. Lukee1811

    Lukee1811 Rebelscum

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    I think this mainly serves for story purposes and more as a way of linking Rey and Kylo together, than distancing them from everybody else up to now. We may be over-analyzing this. We want to know all the Force lore. But millions of casual fans will just be happy with an explanation of why Kylo and Rey are related (not necessarily in the genetic sense). For example, many non-hardcore fans disliked TFA because they could't fathom how some girl from a garbage planet could beat this intimidating red-lightsaber-wielding masked dude. So this might attempt to solve this discrepancy, rather than explaining how this fits into the overall meaning of the Force.
     
    #5 Lukee1811, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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  6. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi Commander

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    You're right of course - it could just be left open for us, that are this way inclined, to discuss to death.
    Though like you say, Rey's rapid ascendency in power needs an answer. Luke appears shocked in the trailer by her strength - and sounds like he was the same with Ben. We've always been presented with this idea that the Force was dormant and it awoke in TFA. These events have to be connected and I think that the immense power these two display may have more to do with this than just with the Skywalker bloodline, especially with Rey.
     
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  7. Darth Male.

    Darth Male. Clone

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    Hi folks. I'm new to this forum (first post, long time lurker) but I've been thinking about this one.

    It could be as simple as the fact that they both have the dichotomy of light and dark in them genetically. Ben has the good side of Leia/Skywalker, but also dark elements of Anakin/Vader and even Han Solo (whilst a hero, not exactly the most upstanding member of society). This is probably what Snoke sensed in him, a potential to be much bigger than someone born totally from either light or dark.

    I think when we get Rey's backstory she'll be a similar thing. Born of a dark-side and light side combination. Probably more dramatically even than Ben somehow. Making her potentially hugely powerful. E.g. if its the 'Rey made in a lab theory' then elements of Good and Bad DNA. maybe Skywalkers hand mixed with Palpatine (that would make her pretty strong, no?). Maybe Palps discovered this secret to 'unlimited power' and thats what the research facility on Jakku was. I think the reference to "raw strength" is Ben, and its his combination of dark/light that was so potentially powerful, but it would a much better twist imo if he was actually talking about a young Rey.

    Anyway, just food for thought. and happy to be here!
     
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  8. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi Commander

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    Welcome! And a great first post - something I too have speculated about for some time. I feel that Rey's origins relate back to Palpatine and his Empire in some way - potentially linking into the research facility on Jakku. I've wondered if Palpatine, seeking a way to live forever, created possible vessels for him to transfer his consciousness into. Or if he even had a family of his own. The other possibility is that he did indeed try to clone Vader or Luke (from the hand) and this all ties together that way. All wild speculation and I expect the answer to not be so complex or convoluted...
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 12, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 12, 2017 ---
    "This was not just 'The Force Awakens' in a young woman," the documentary reveals. "It's the dark side of The Force awakening in the villain."
    JJ Abrams - TFA Blu-Ray commentary.
     
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  9. Darth Male.

    Darth Male. Clone

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    Thank you! yes, i agree, and that would be really interesting. I think the theme of Light/Dark combined is huge to this ST, so i'd be amazed to learn Reys origins to be as simple as Skywalker/Kenobi/Random. I suspect there will be a combination of dark and light in there somewhere... With Snoke a similar being from a time before the direct split between jedi & Sith.
     
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  10. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi Commander

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    Since the disappearance of Luke Skywalker and the shattering of his fledging Jedi following, the cosmic Force has lain dormant, seemingly quieted to those able to sense its presence. The adventures of Rey and Finn on Jakku coincide with a turbulence in the cosmic Force, sudden ripple indicating the awakening of newfound ability. With the Jedi and their records vanished, few - other than Kylo Ren and his mysterious master - are able to appreciate this occurrence.
    -TFA Visual Dictionary
     
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  11. Maximus

    Maximus Force Sensitive

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    @master_shaitan

    so i've watched the trailer another 50 squillion times..

    Snoke says:
    "When I found you, you had raw, unlimited power... and beyond that, something special."

    at first i assumed he was talking to Kylo, but then the last bit made me wonder if he was talking to Rey...

    then i came full circle.. what if Snoke is talking to Kylo, but the 'something special' is the bond that Snoke could see in Kylo with another person? Rey
    or even.. that he could sense the person he was really after through kylo's bond?

    worth a thought?
     
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  12. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel Trooper

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    Because that's what Hollywood does. They love to make movies about people who are more powerful than anyone else. The thing to keep in mind though is anytime you seek power you will lose a part of yourself. Kylo killing his father is losing a part of himself. Palpatine, Snoke, and Vader looked less human as they seeked more power. Dark Phoenix of the X-Men which was my favorite was all powerful, but also was losing her humanity Didn't we have something similar with Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen? Just keep that in mind with all this power stuff.
     
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  13. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    1. General balance in the Force. Neither Light nor the Dark having supremacy in the bigger picture.

    2. I don't thinks so. Luke still had power, Leia still had power, his pupils still had power because he was obviously teaching them. in other words - things were normal.

    3. Because it was restored. There was no need for the Force itself to 'intervene' so to speak.

    4. I believe once the Balance was restored. At the end of ROTJ.

    5. With the rise of First Order and appearance of Snoke (who obviously meddled where he shouldn't, including influencing Ben Solo) and them spreading the influence of the Dark Side - the Dark Side is not spread just through the Force users but through all the people who are part of the Force - the Force has 'awakened', put out its larger influence into the galaxy once again to right things once again. This surge has found it's home in two people - Ben Solo who Snoke managed to manipulate to the Dark Side thus making imbalance greater and Rey who needs to catch up quickly. Dormant doesn't mean that there was no Force, it just means inactive in a way it was when it created Anakin, for example. Awakening is reaction to things people obviously cannot handle without little help.

    Whatever Snoke is (and he might be the Big Bad Thrawn was talking about), he has damaged the balance so badly that the explosion is needed just to attempt stopping him.
     
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  14. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi Commander

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    My post from another thread, relevant here:

    Seeing Luke's hand emerge from the rubble surprised me. It means Ren overpowered him.
    Is Ren (and indeed Rey) just that naturally powerful? I think to Anakin in AotC when he faces Dooku and gets his a$$ handed to him.
    It seems not even the chosen one had Rey and Ren type power. This is why I created a thread about why Rey and Ren are so powerful:
    I think the Force may have been dormant for Luke - maybe he searched the galaxy for reasons why?
    But Snoke awakens the Dark Side with Ren and thus makes him capable of defeating Luke?
    This may also indicate why Snoke fears Luke's return (the new Jedi will rise) - because Luke could with Rey, as Snoke did with Ben, empower the light side?
    If this is the case, it makes the plot a lot clearer - TFA was about finding Luke. TLJ is about getting him to train Rey despite his misgivings.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 12, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 12, 2017 ---
    Agreed.

    Is this clear though? It could be that the pwoer was there but waining and Luke felt that. We don't know what power Leia had other than her connection to the living Force. And it is the cosmic force that was dormant. Perhaps Luke's order, whatever his order was, was failing and this is why he travelled with Ben - to find answers. Ben found them with Snoke...

    Yep, I agree. Does this mean though that events in TFA lead Rey to awakening the Force or that it was just down to Rey connecting with it? I ask, because it would make sense for the Force to strike back when the Dark Side is empowered by Ben and Snoke...

    Which leads me onto something else - Ben was likely taken in by Luke near to the time Rey was either born or left on Jakku. This could then coincide with Snoke coming out of the shadows and manipulating Ben. Hence, the Force could've then intervened through empowering Rey with the light/Force to counter the growing Dark Side?

    Again, makes sense. I'd just like clarification. I mean, the dormancy may have occurred when Ben turned and destroyed the Jedi, though I doubt that.


    Well put - I agree.
    Though the cosmic Force itself was described as dormant - thus wouldn't that suggest no one was using it?

    Yep.
     
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  15. LadyMusashi

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    We get so caught up in Cosmic, Living, Light, Dark... These are only the aspects of the Force. Force is one and whole at all times, only people use parts of it, because they don't know any better or are not evolved enough to use entirety of it (like Bendu, for example, though even him might not be using all of itt). You can say that aspect of the Force was inactive, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there, part of the one Force. As long as there is Force there are those who are using it, but whether they are using all of it or what parts of it depends on who they are.
     
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  16. Valim

    Valim Rebel General

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    Anakin>Luke>Leia>Ben>Rey...

    There kick ass for one reason, there all chosen from blood.
     
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  17. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel General

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    Now this is a GREAT observation. It's one thing to pursue a goal and in the process attaining power, it's another to make the goal attaining power. And it almost always comes at a cost when it is pursued that way.

    Can never guarantee that pursuit of any particular goal will be a noble one and the power attained in that pursuit is wisely used, but when power is the pursuit, it is almost always detrimentally used and destroys the pursuant. And just as you observed this theme is repeated across movies (and if we look closely probably across real life)
     
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  18. Corn Cream

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    When power is the only thing that matters, you become blind to everything else around you. A lot has to be sacrificed. You are so right when it comes to real life. How many people have lost family and friends along the road to power?
     
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  19. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi Commander

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    I'm under the impression though that the cosmic force was the part that provided Jedi with certain powers? It deals with destiny but also some of their physical skills. This is what awakens it - Rey using new found abilities. And so does that suggest, if the cosmic force was dormant, that no one was using the powers usually associated with it?
     
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  20. LadyMusashi

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    We'll see - Cosmic Force is mostly known to us as responsible for the communication with Force ghosts so we'll see how much communication Luke had with his masters and friends. Wokieepedia says that it quieted to those who could sense it, but I still don't think it disappeared completely. And I don't think the Force works like that - now you have abilities, now you don't. We'll see, it seems that Rian goes deep into the lore.
     
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