1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

SPECULATION Why Did Ben Solo Turn to the Dark Side?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by DailyPlunge, Aug 24, 2016.

  1. PrincessLeiaCB3

    PrincessLeiaCB3 The Princess that was Promised
    1030th Commander *** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2015
    Posts:
    3,745
    Likes Received:
    31,542
    Trophy Points:
    156,967
    Credits:
    36,934
    Ratings:
    +35,893 / 27 / -11
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  2. Cabbie76

    Cabbie76 Clone

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2016
    Posts:
    2
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Credits:
    600
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0
    At no point in the movie or the novelization is the map referenced to lead to the first jedi temple. It is in fact in both the Novel and the Movie referred to only as "The Map to Skywalker". The reference to the temple is said only in speculation "Those closest to him THINK he went looking for the first jedi temple" It is through assumptions and implications that we assign Ach-to as being the home of said temple.

    Secondly, no I was not implying that Ben was involved in Luke's exile. Who put him there is a mystery. However, we do know that the "map to Skywalker" as it is referenced in both the book and the movie, was found in the imperial archives. How would this map be in the Empire's hands unless someone within the remnants of the empire put him there, then hid the evidence in the archives.

    Yes, Ren is open in spaces he feels safe. Yes, he's incapable of hiding from Snoke. The fact that he is conflicted is certainly not up for debate. Thus why he needs to find Luke to help him get back on the right path. I also did not imply that he masterminded anything. He is there initially on Luke's guidance. However, Luke is exiled subsequent to Ben's infiltration. It is the loss of his master that has caused him to lose his focus and therefore caused him to look insecure and naive.

    Again, we shall see. None of us is writing this. But it is fun to debate and speculate nonetheless...


    As Far as Hux is concerned... My vote? He is a clone of Palpatine. His look and his accent match perfectly. Listen to the nazi speech on starkiller (sound's just like Palpatine/The Emperor) Explains the blue contacts as well... :)

    Only time will tell.
     
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  3. PrincessLeiaCB3

    PrincessLeiaCB3 The Princess that was Promised
    1030th Commander *** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2015
    Posts:
    3,745
    Likes Received:
    31,542
    Trophy Points:
    156,967
    Credits:
    36,934
    Ratings:
    +35,893 / 27 / -11
    As Supreme Leader Snoke said, lol.

    Mmm from Life: Debt we found out he was the product of an affair between Brendol Hux and a kitchen worker.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Wise Wise x 1
  4. Maximillian

    Maximillian Rebel General

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Posts:
    541
    Likes Received:
    974
    Trophy Points:
    4,717
    Credits:
    1,674
    Ratings:
    +1,434 / 31 / -5
    If it turns out that Hux is a clone of the Emperor. Which I can't see as he's in such a low position for an important clone.

    It would be interesting for his character as firstly he considers his 'Fathers' method of hiring humans better than a clone army. Might be a good character twist.

    And it would also mean that both Hux and his rival Kylo Ren were lied two about there ancestry.

    But I don't think Hux has been given enough of a character to warrant such a twist. Unless that comes up in IX. Still, Gleeson is a very good actor, why cast him in a bit part and why make him wear contacts indeed...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    yes, the map came from the archives of the Empire, which is our clue that it's not a map specifically to Luke, it's just a map to a location that's been lost to the rest of the galaxy since it was squirreled away. why would the Empire (now 30 years defeated) have a map to something that happened 5 or 6 years ago? you suggest someone put it there. i think that's kind of far-fetched (there's no rationale for it, and then why would R2 have it? and why wouldn't the FO have it?). it's called a "map to Skywalker" for our sake as an audience. i don't believe that's literally what it is. but whatever. i actually think it's not important ~ ha!

    in case it wasn't clear, i'm not saying you did, i'm saying he's incapable (psychologically, emotionally) of coming up with a plan at this depth, or even following the orders of someone else's plan. he can't stay focused for anything in TFA because he is so totally compromised. the chances of him playing some kind of long game seem perilously thin. why would Luke put him in this position?

    just 457 more days to go! hahaha
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 13, 2016 ---
    the only room i can see for a twist is if that kitchen worker were somehow Palpatine-related and Rax knows it.
    if we want to put our tinfoil hats on, maybe she was even planted there. though for what purpose i can't imagine.

    there's just something suspicious about the contacts, about the necessity of making him a bastard (of all things), about his father being a pig-faced commandant, and about Rax taking particular interest in him. maybe it will come to nothing, but i do feel like Hux must be more important than just a random officer. and why all the mystery about his name?
     
    • Like Like x 4
  6. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Posts:
    4,359
    Likes Received:
    15,441
    Trophy Points:
    146,267
    Credits:
    14,965
    Ratings:
    +20,581 / 309 / -97
    There's an outstanding article over at MakingStarWars about Sith artifices and how they can control people. This is discussed in relation to Vader's helmet and how Snoke could be using this to control Ren.

     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    or the opposite.

    not that the art was actually made for the article or by Lucasfilm, but notice which side of the Force it falls in this image which accompanies the text:

    Screen Shot 2016-09-21 at 3.03.11 PM.png

    Darth Vader is Ren's confidant outside of the influence of Snoke, it would appear.
    even if Ren thinks Vader's artifact is imbuing him with Dark, what if the opposite it true?
    what if the helmet is actually the thing keeping him in turmoil toward the Light?

    just food fer...
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Original Original x 3
  8. Dark Toilet

    Dark Toilet Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2014
    Posts:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    2,337
    Trophy Points:
    11,077
    Credits:
    3,911
    Ratings:
    +4,340 / 94 / -49
    I love that artwork... but Kylo says to the mask: "Show me again... The power of the darkness... And I'll let nothing stand in our way... Show me... Grandfather... and I will finish... what you started." Are you suggesting that the mask is not imbued with the darkside, but actually the light? Kind of the foil to Snoke's dark influence? I find it unlikely, only because Kylo asks of the mask to "Show me again..." This suggests to me that he perhaps received some darkside vision from the mask, much the same way that Rey received her vision from the lightsaber. But, anything is possible!
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Wise Wise x 1
  9. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    Ren could be confused (his moral compass is certainly befuddled). maybe he thinks the helmet should be showing him the Dark, but it's not.
    however Snoke has twisted this kid's head, he may not have any clear sense where he's getting his Light/Dark influence from if the artifacts in fact can project such influence.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Original Original x 2
  10. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Posts:
    832
    Likes Received:
    5,525
    Trophy Points:
    14,877
    Credits:
    5,915
    Ratings:
    +7,305 / 20 / -6
    It is highly unlikely that the helmet is imbued with the Light side. It is Vader's helmet, not something that belonged to Anakin. It represents the dark side persona Anakin became in Mustafar and the pain, aggression, revenge, hate, loss and everything dark side that transformed the jedi Anakin Skywalker into the sith Darth Vader.

    What is interesting however is if Kylo/Ben received a vision or guidance from his grandfather (as the monologue implies), or if he was manipulated by Snoke to think he has (I think the most likely option), or imagined he has...The again in "Show me again the power of the darkside" is very intriguing indeed and raises quite a few questions.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  11. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    while i agree with your logic, i would argue that if objects somehow absorb "anima" then that blue light saber should likewise be an evil artifact.
    and if the argument is that no, it was "made good" by Luke, then i would likewise suggest that Luke "made good" the trappings of the Vader persona by cremating Anakin in full mask and suit. the man was dead. he could have left the helmet on the Death Star.

    p.s. i don't put a lot of stock in the "again" in Ren's line. he's seen the Dark side. maybe through Vader, more likely through Snoke. the two aren't necessarily connected (again and Vader specifically).
     
    • Like Like x 5
  12. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Posts:
    832
    Likes Received:
    5,525
    Trophy Points:
    14,877
    Credits:
    5,915
    Ratings:
    +7,305 / 20 / -6
    Oh, I also don't think that the blue lightsaber represents the light (Anakin) necessarily - Anakin murdered the younglings with it after all.
    But you have a point of Luke cremating his father in his Vader suit. There surely could have been some transformational power in that act.

    (That brings to mind a concept art for TFA of Luke holding Vader's burned helmet which of course we don't know if it has any value for the current story or not or was just that - a concept art.)

    But they are in the dialogue - at least that's what is literally said. He says (beseechingly) "Show me again the power of the darkness. Show me, grandfather." while talking to the helmet.
    This, of course, I agree, doesn't necessarily mean that what Kylo/Ben thinks was shown to him once before came from the helmet or even Vader necessarily, but his words imply that he believes his grandfather showed him the darkside before and he asks to be shown it again. Whatever that means we don't know, but could be a future plot point...
    If that happened before through the helmet is debatable. In fact he may have had a vision of Vader (most probably a manipulated vision by Snoke) before and he searched for Vader's artifacts with the confused hope that access to them will induce another vision...Why I don't think he really had a Vision by Vader is because we know (from the end of ROTJ) that Anakin returned and became a Force Ghost thus it will have huge implications if Kylo saw a vision of Vader. Did he mistake Anakin for Vader? What did he see? That's really unclear. But from his monologue to Vader's helmet it is implied that Kylo thinks his grandfather showed him the darkside before and he asks to be shown it again...
    It's intriguing, no doubt.

    Here is a very good artwork of a maskless Kylo talking to Vader's helmet.
    [​IMG]
     
    #192 Obi-Wan Solo, Sep 22, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
    • Like Like x 6
  13. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    i guess that was what i was saying about the ambiguity. Ren has seen the Dark, but from whom, we don't know ~ and it's unlikely he's seen it from Vader.
    perhaps i just worded that abysmally, sorry. and i guess i was taking it further to say that since it's unlikely he's seen it from Vader, then it strikes me as unlikely it's coming from the mask and therefore, if anything, the mask (if a true relic attached to the true man) would emanate Light, not Dark.

    and to try to clarify here too, i don't know that i believe all this imbuing inanimate objects with Dark/Light stuff.
    i tend to think the Force itself is neutral. it's the wielder that gives the power sway.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  14. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Posts:
    7,119
    Likes Received:
    10,295
    Trophy Points:
    144,192
    Credits:
    15,738
    Ratings:
    +19,243 / 799 / -292
    Hmmm, this has given me another though. I've been on about Snoke draining "Force power" but maybe it is more about draining one's "strength"?
    I think he had a vision when he possessed the Skywalker saber (like Rey). He interpretated this vision in accord with his twisted state of mind. I think it probably showed him what happened on bespin.

    The feeling I get with Ren is his life is a bloody tragedy. The deleted scene of him on the falcon speaks volumes. Deep down he knows who he could've been. But he has pissed it all away because of his perceived weakness - undoubtedly originating from Snoke's manipulation of him. I bet he had a vision from that saber soon before he destroyed Luke's Jedi and turned bad. I'm also wondering if Maz is more of an ally to Luke than we know and actually stole the saber from Ren to prevent him having more of these visions?

    I dunno, just strikes me that Ren is being set up as the character who has been caught in the shadow of Vader. Let's face it, this saga is and always will be about Vader. Lucas ensured it was all about him. And this is the way of continuing that story until we have total closure.

    I dint the the mask is imbued with dark power - I think Ren sought it out though out of desperation to try and get another vision. But I believe he had that first vision for the same reason Rey did. The force was showing him his destiny. He just saw it all wrong and it backfired. Hopefully Rey will see it "the right way"...
     
    #194 master_shaitan, Sep 22, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
    • Like Like x 6
  15. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    i assume you meant "strength" there? i am vacillating on the drainage still. i do think Snoke is getting his jollies from using Ren Ben's power in more ways than one, but i'm not sure quite how to reconcile all that yet.

    i believe this too. Ren has seen his destiny (and likely through that saber), but it has been totally perverted by Snoke.
    i don't think the mask has any power except sentimental ~ which perhaps is its own form of Light.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  16. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Posts:
    832
    Likes Received:
    5,525
    Trophy Points:
    14,877
    Credits:
    5,915
    Ratings:
    +7,305 / 20 / -6
    O, I agree with you! I think we think alike. The only point I was "disagreeing" with was Vader's mask being imbued with light side and pulling him to the Light.

    Also, what you said about Vader being Kylo's confidante outside of Snoke is very important and is my feeling exactly.
    Actually to me what the whole scene tells us is precisely that among other things. (In fact for such a short scene we learn quite a bit about Kylo!) It seems that Kylo is confiding in Vader to give him strength to overcome his pull to the light, but the words "Supreme Leader senses it" to me almost imply that Kylo is worried/fears that his feelings of being pulled to the Light are found out by Snoke and he fears the consequences. In fact from the TFA novelization when Snoke tells Kylo off on his compassion towards Rey when Kylo asks him for guidance, Snoke tells him, (I paraphrase) Kylo Ren, I see a reminder is in order (i.e. this has happened before and I have shown you the darkside when you had a similar episode??), bring the girl to me and I will show you the darkside." Many people think (because the dialogue in the film omits that part) that Snoke wants Kylo to bring Rey to train her, but I think (based on the extended dialogue in the novelization) the purpose of Kylo bringing Rey to Snoke is to teach Kylo a lesson in the darkside. I find this very intriguing and important.

    I agree. As I said in my post above, I think we can speculate that Kylo probably deliberately sought Vader related artifacts with the hope that he will get visions/guidance from Vader. Thus I agree it is not a given that the vision he thinks he was sent by Vader necessarily came from the mask. I also think Kylo probably had a vision before which he probably misunderstood (in fact I think he has seen Rey in such a vision and that the line from the novelization and the recognition "It is you" is him recording the girl from his vision is her.)

    As to Anakin's blue lightsaber. I know you are referring to the early script leaked shotkist about Maz taking the sabre, but if we go by that shotlist then the saber came into Ben's possession after he assumed the persona of Kylo Ren and after he had joined the Knights of Ren, thus the speculation that a vision that he misinterpreted came from him holding the blue lightsaber doesn't add up with that timeline as according to that shotlist he was already Kylo Ren when he took possession of the lightsaber which Maz stole from him...Of course the story could have changed since that shotlist...(At that point o development the sabre was the MacGuffin which we know changed to the map "to Luke" being it...)
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Informative Informative x 2
  17. Maximillian

    Maximillian Rebel General

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Posts:
    541
    Likes Received:
    974
    Trophy Points:
    4,717
    Credits:
    1,674
    Ratings:
    +1,434 / 31 / -5
    I think force ghost vader/Anakin as seen in the art book should be taken quite seriously in relation to the helmet.
    Perhaps that concept was going to be part of Rey's forceback vision. But I think it is more likely that they toyed around with us seeing Anakin/Vader talking with Kylo. it seems like it was one of their 'postcard' moments with the character of Kylo. He collects dark side artefacts, that one of the oldest part of the characters conception and originally they had the scene edited to just after Finn defects. So it was the defining moment for Kylo's characterisation is lots of ways.
    It shows he's conflicted, tells the audience his lineage and outlines his feelings about the light and dark. And that he's a fanboy of Vader.

    it seems likely that the Anakin ghost is concept art for Kylo +The Vader helmet. And in the art book they explain that the ghost would shift back and forth between Anakin and Vader. and if thats the version of 'Anakin' Kylo Ren gets to talk to it will surely only make him more conflicted, as the ghost would swing from giving him good 'skywalker' advice to cold and aggressive 'Vader' advice.

    It would be no surprise that the conflict is so great in him if that is the Force Ghost who acts as his compass.

    It would also explain his mood swings between cold blooded killer and 'You need a teacher' trying to enact the kind of thing Anakin/Vader would say. but without a clear destiction between the two personalities in Kylo's head. So he sometimes get good force-ghost advice and sometimes gets awful force-ghost advice. Imagine if instead of Ben Kenobi as a ghost mentor Luke had had personality disorder Anakin/Vader...Would explain Kylo's character pretty well

    [​IMG]
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  18. GingerByte

    GingerByte Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    As cool as it looks, I'm glad it was scrapped. The conflict within him had already been resolved by the end of ROTJ, and you can't become a force ghost unless you completely reject the light side.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    3,221
    Trophy Points:
    13,167
    Credits:
    7,326
    Ratings:
    +5,168 / 26 / -7
    It would be interesting to see Luke's reaction were his path to cross with the Vader helmet relic - especially if it happens to be imbued with some dark side corruptive power.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Original Original x 1
  20. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,794
    Likes Received:
    15,181
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,163
    Ratings:
    +26,536 / 845 / -253
    It's more than likely that the helmet has some sort of dark side "energy" left over that can cause ben to hallucinate specific energy from vader's force power and not Anakin's instead of vader/helmet literally showing himself to him
    .
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 23, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 23, 2016 ---
    From my knowledge, this was a passing concept that was considered for all of a second so I wouldn't put too much stock into it..
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...

Share This Page