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Why did Luke have to die? Honest question

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Qui-GON29, Feb 4, 2019.

  1. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I'm still in the camp that thinks that big moments like Luke's death were storyboarded long before Rian's first draft.

    Assuming that's the case, there's almost assuredly going to be a reason for his death made clear in IX.

    Or, you could argue that the reason for his death was made clear already in VIII. It's pretty apparent that Luke realized that he was needed to inspire hope and become a legend.
     
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  2. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Because they know they can bring him back as a Force Ghost, and abuse it like RJ did with Yoda in TLJ. If Force Ghost Yoda can shoot lightning and destroy something physical in the real world, why can't he come back and fight with Rey against The First Order? Heck, why can't Force Ghost Luke now come back and fight with Rey as a Force Ghost, so who cares if he died?

    Remember Obiwan said in ESB, 'If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere." Apparently, RJ didn't watch that part of ESB when he made TLJ.
     
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  3. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    How is burning down a tree on the same level as fighting Darth Vader? Yoda isn't fighting anyone or interfering in a battle. He's making a point to Luke. It seems to me that Yoda has become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
     
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  4. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Umm, you just kind of made my point. If he can summon lightning then they need recruit Yoda to fight the First Order since as you said, "He has become more powerful then you could possibly imagine."

    Kenobi NEVER physically used the Force in the OT, as that was the point of a Force Ghost. He would still be there to guide Luke in the Trilogy, but he was still limited to that only. But to see Yoda use Lightning, I think he is more important to the Resistance then Rey or Luke at this point. ;)
     
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  5. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    You dont know to what extent Yoda could continue to interact with the physical world. Could a Jedi/Sith have simply blocked the lightning and then Yoda not constantly repeat it. Honestly we dont know to what extent he could interact. We also dont know what it took for him to learn to do it.
     
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  6. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    As you mentioned before they cannot interfere... i.e. fight on their behalf. Burning down this tree doesn't violate what Obi-Wan said.
    It's extremely nitpicky to complain about Yoda in TLJ. This is a fantasy series so complaining about evolving lore when it's a natural extension of the limited amount of information we know is just silly.
     
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  7. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    The fact that we’re debating tells me Force Ghost Yoda would be possibly relevant in a fight against The First Order, especially since Snoke died. ;)

    Again, that’s my point that the Force Ghost was abused in TLJ because now it’s a subject compared to 1-6 where they never physically used the Force.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 5, 2019 ---
    I’m not being nitpicky, as you are the one assuming Yoda can’t interfere. I’m saying why can’t he appear after he summoned lightning for whatever physical object he choose?
     
  8. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    You brought up the non-interference.
    If your argument is RJ didn't watch that part you have to convince me that Yoda's actions are inconsistent with what is already canon.

    Is Yoda interfering in a fight on behalf of Luke or Rey? The answer is no.
    Are Yoda's powers a contradiction in canon? The answer is no.

    So I'm not sure what the issue is with Yoda burning down a tree. As I mentioned is a natural extension to the lore that's awesome and in line with what we already know.
     
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  9. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Ah yes... the ole "this is a fantasy series so you have to accept anything they throw at you even when they violate their own rules" excuse....
     
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  10. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    Arch-to is a Force conduit world. Ghost Yoda or even Luke might not be able to accomplish what they did on other worlds or off world.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 5, 2019 ---
    Old Ben could not interfere because Anakin was like his son. He could not bring himself to kill Anakin on Mustafar and he would not help Luke do it either.
     
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  11. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    It's okay to be snarky, but that's not what I said. No rule was violated and this is a fantasy series with expanding lore. In ESB, Luke grabbing a saber was a new force ability we hadn't seen before. It expanded on the lore. Yoda had known about force ghosts for decades before passing away in RofJ and the first time we see him 30 years later people are complaining that Yoda is amazing?

    It's confounding to me that people can complain about new lore in a fantasy series. If you think it violates a rule by all means explain why.
    This is also a good point. There's still a great deal unknown about force ghosts. Expanding on the lore is a step in the right direction.
     
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  12. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Master of Coin
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    Let's also not cheapen this discussion with this sort of denigration, but instead stick to the topic at hand. Thank you.
     
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  13. KesselRunner

    KesselRunner Rebel General

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    Much of the established lore was thrown out along with Legends back in 2014. With the Canon Universe they're still technically in the world-building stage (or re-building, as it were), establishing new lore and new rules. Yoda being able to use Force abilities as a Force Ghost is a major departure from the old lore. It stems from the line "I cannot interfere." Saying "cannot" means he lacks the ability. He doesn't say "I will not interfere.", which would mean he had the ability but chose not to. But again, this was established back in Legends, which means it has no bearing on the Canon films, which means Force Ghosts can do whatever the heck the writers want them to do. ;)
     
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  14. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    Wait a minute... the line "I cannot interfere" is not in the EU/Legends, it is in cannon. It is in the films. Thus it is cannon. It was established in The Empire Strikes Back, thus it is cannon.

    As for the idea they can or can not interact with the material world, I took it as meaning Obi Wan couldn't help Luke as he is not material. He is not a physical bein and thus can't do anything that would be able to aid Luke. Sure he can give Luke advice, but that is all.

    What can force ghosts do and what can they not do? I'm not sure. Apparently Yoda can call down lightning and destroy something in the material world. That is new. But as @DailyPlunge said, at some point all force powers are/were new. I would personally have been weary of allowing a force ghost to interact with the physical world in this way, but that is just me.
     
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  15. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    It amazes me the people that seemingly want to get mad about an ability they havent seen before. How many also wanted Luke to be this invincible Superman Jedi. They wanted the Luke on Crait to be real and would happily take that Force ability with no issue. Yet the Force Ghost of perhaps the most knowledgeable Jedi of all time being able to pull lightning to start a fire on a dead tree is all canon busting.
     
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  16. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Attuned

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    Luke escaped death
     
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  17. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    "We are what they grow beyond."

    Just saying, all we know right now is that on a particularly force strong planet, Yoda was able to manifest himself and burn down a tree that someone was possibly going to burn down anyway.

    I know "fire bad", but I'm not sure that in the scope of something like Star Wars that this is some sort of supreme power, especially since we're not at all clear on what limits it has.

    We can nitpick all we want, but I'm not sure how useful it is to yell at each other about the rules of ghosts... especially when canon hasn't really spelled them out anyway.

    If anything, I think that a Force Ghost's greatest powers are still the ability to inspire and to train.
     
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  18. Jawajedi12

    Jawajedi12 Clone

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    Luke should die in 9 he died in a stupid way in TLJ
    But meh that movie ruined the sequels for me
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Luke is dead.
    The ghost manifestation of Luke is different that Luke being alive.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 5, 2019 ---
    How should Luke have died in 9?
    In a blaze of glory?
     
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  20. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Attuned

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    I understand the difference, but if anything, I think the movies want us to see Force "ghosts" as even MORE alive than before. As Obi-Wan says, "strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Unity with the Force, with Life itself, is much different than death.

    Like fading triumphantly into the Force is much different than Luke getting killed by Kylo or something like that. It's a moment of victory, not of defeat. He has passed into greater life, not into death.

    This is the crux of the dramatic irony of the prequels. Anakin turns dark and loses everything in an attempt to cheat death, while all along Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan succeed in finding the secret.
     
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