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Why did Luke have to die? Honest question

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Qui-GON29, Feb 4, 2019.

  1. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Yes, that’s why ANH and ESB are my 2 favorite movies and a main reason why ROTJ will never be because it’s not as original. So thanks for proving my point.

    Lucas always talked about the PT/OT rhyming and I have never been a fan of that. But what separates the PT from the ST is that the macro story is new and original as the world building shows a side that we never saw in the OT, and Palpatine’s arc is great.

    The ST (TLJ is not original) not only steals from the OT/PT in terms of repeating the same beats and storylines (again with alittle twist), but there’s no world building at all and just the same mundane Resistance vs First Order, Rey is the chosen one, Kylo Ren maybe redeemed......
     
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  2. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Lol.
    It doesn't prove your point.
    It proves you are being very selective about what you count as stealing and what doesn't count. You're okay with the PT borrowing heavily from the OT but the ST can't?

    The ST is very much an inverse telling of the OT. It rhymes just as the PT did. You are being selective here.
    Instead of the actual focus being on the desert bound future Jedi, it's on the evil dark one.
    instead of the legacy name being the ultimate hero, they're the villain.
    Kylo Ren is basically "what if Luke went dark"
     
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  3. KesselRunner

    KesselRunner Rebel General

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    "Cannot" was established in the EU as meaning that Force Ghosts couldn't affect the physical world. The new Canon apparently doesn't follow that line of thinking, so "cannot" has to mean something else; like he was being kept from interfering for some reason.

    Anyway, on topic. :D The way it looks to me, Luke's death in TLJ mirrors Yoda's death in RotJ, Yoda still had one final secret to tell and so did Luke, in the form of the ancient Jedi books that Rey took. Since the Sequel Trilogy is almost a re-telling of the Original Trilogy, I feel that Luke's death fills the same purpose that Yoda's does. It was simply his time.
     
    #63 KesselRunner, Feb 6, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
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  4. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, but that’s the fun in SW debates as we just see the movies differently. I look at the end of Episode 8, and it feels like the beginning of Episode 4. Rey is the chosen one, Kylo Ren is the bad guy that could be redeemed, the Resistance is fighting the mighty First Order.
     
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  5. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Attuned

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    If Star Wars films didn't "steal" anything from each other they wouldn't be Star Wars films. If there's no unity of theme then there's no reason for these to be films in the same series. If we're going to be this picky, the idea Star Wars sequel might as well be Mary Poppins.
     
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  6. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

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    The same reason Obi-wan died in A New Hope. The baton needs to be passed to the new heroes.
     
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  7. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend

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    With thunderous applause.

    In hindsight it might have been easier to set the ST some 50 years later so that the old heroes are dead. But you can't leave them out in that timeframe without spending half the time finding a good reason why they aren't involved (I doubt anyone would've loved cameos of old heroes that are too old and weak to even hold a blaster/"lasersword")
     
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  8. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Imagines Luke in the ST as Mermaid Man.
     
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  9. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    I love TLJ because of the whole package. The visuals were stunning, the music was awesome (watch the music only version), the performance were great, the use of lore, the use of foreshadowing, all the little elements that you pick up on multiple viewings. Yes I love Luke's arc. He failed (before TFA) in a very personal and human way and became the legend the Resistance and the Galaxy needed. His fear didnt lead to the dark side, but it still lead him to darkness. I love it because of the heroes journey.

    I love action packed super hero movies and the like, but Star Wars always had something else and TLJ to me nailed it. I guess I would say it is the humanity that shows through. The villians dont use superpowers to win, it has been cunning and deception that has been the villians true power. The heroes dont win because of super powers. It was love that beat the emperor in ROTJ. Not whose strength in the force was greater. Fathers love of child. Childs love of parent.
     
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  10. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    And some of this I agree with, even though I don't like TLJ. The acting is good (he is a great director of acting), the film was definitely visually stunning. The rest I would disagree with, but I'm glad some really enjoyed TLJ. Hopefully we will all, or most of us will, enjoy IX.
     
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  11. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    "You will go to the Dagobah system...There you will learn from Yoda...the Jedi master who instructed me."

    "You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again."

    Ghost Obi-Wan certainly had no problem 'interfering' if it meant pointing Luke toward a preferred path. That's all ghost Yoda did in my observation - redirect a wayward Luke toward a desired path . . . kind of like that lightning.

    You chose to interpret his statement as meaning he can't help in the fight. I choose to interpret it as meaning he can't assist in a path that's self-destructive. The moment in ESB when Luke actually asks for Ben's help is AFTER his fight with Vader - dealing with the consequences of his ill-advised actions. Luke had to work that out on his own. He got himself into that predicament and he needed to get himself back out. That’s how I see it anyhow.
    "Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force." - Yoda

    It's implied there that everyone becomes 'one with the Force' when they die. So, technically, no one ever really 'dies'. "Unity with the Force" IS death in this universe. Luke did that. He's dead.
    OK, not really what you’re asking for, but this is what I had in mind: Luke uses the entirety of his strength in the Force in order to prevent a moon or small planet from collapsing/imploding long enough for the remaining Resistance members to get off. Luke is physically there. He allows the good guys to escape. Sacrifices himself while demonstrating his immense power.

    Basically, Kanan’s death from Rebels, but on an exponentially more massive scale. He wouldn’t be flipping about or pulling destroyers out of the sky or whatever the hell, but he’d still be showing his mastery and harkening back to his “size matters not” lesson from ESB.

    I really do love what RJ did with the concept though. Luke’s victory in ROTJ (in the trilogy as a whole) was throwing away his weapon, announcing himself as a Jedi, and refusing to fight - an act of genuine passivism in the face of aggression. His moment on Crait was a magnification of that theme. The same premise, but on a grander stage. I really appreciate that. Luke, dying from what was essentially a dressed up diversion, is a little anti-climactic for me, but I think the symbology there is well worth it.
     
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  12. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Think the difference is in TLJ Yoda does not interfere with some other being. He causes a dead tree to get lit on fire. That doesnt mean Rey can be fighting someone and Luke Ghost step in and say let me handle this. That is a jump that I dont want and I dont think will be viable.

    Everyone dies, not every Jedi simply becomes part of the Force. Some have learned how to remain a separate entity living within the Force, but not in the physical realm.

    This would be the Super Jedi that so many wanted Luke to be. To me that would be laughable on screen.
     
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  13. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    As laughable as Leia flying through space?

    I actually liked the idea of "grumpy Luke" or what not. My issue wasn't with that, but with the excuse given for why he was that way. But I don't think I'd have complained with @eeprom version of Luke either.

    The problem, for me, is they failed to take into account 1. the popularity of Luke and 2. the pent up demand of fans to FINALLY see Luke do something cool. Like he has spent 30 years learning the Jedi ways, so now they wanted to see that paid off. Instead those expectations were subverted and the fallout is what it is.
     
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  14. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    It all comes down to what’s meant by ‘interfere’. If I’m headed to the bathroom and my wife asks me to grab her a drink first, then I’ve been ‘interfered’ with (damnit). Luke certainly wasn’t on his way to Dagobah when a shimmery translucent O.B. told him where he “will go”. That’s interference in my book.

    So Force ghosts can interfere, but only to some arbitrary undefined point. I don’t see Yoda’s cameo moving that needle at all. Luke was being a broody turd and had no intention of aiding the Resistance. The little green guy gave that grouch the shove he needed to brush off his crusty pajamas and get involved. It was flashy, sure, but nothing ground breaking from a thematic perspective.

    Yoda, now one with the Force (and nature itself from my perspective), can manipulate this surrounding energy and affect nature . . . to give mopey Luke a swift kick in the pants. Makes sense enough to me.
    Well, going by that previous quote, yeah they do. Jedi are living things and living things become part of the Force after they die.
    Right. That's the difference. I’d say ‘existing within the Force’ to be more accurate though. Luke died - just like everybody else. Luke became a part of the Force - just like everybody else. Luke retained his identity (we presume) - NOT like everybody else.
    This is the part where I take your totally legitimate criticism and point of view personally and defensively claim you’re just not smart enough to ‘get it’ :D Hooray, internet.

    Fair enough.
     
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  15. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Far, far more. She didnt fly through space. The lack of gravity meant a force user had to use minimum force to cause the momentum to move her. We have had Jedi perform incredible jumps on screen and lift ships out of swamps, etc. etc. Yet we have a hard time with Leia performing a little force pull when the adrenaline is pounding and she is saving her own life. Also since I have watched TLJ so many times. You can see Leia knows the missile is coming and she prepares herself for the impact and is ready to do whatever she can to save herself. Also before you say it she does pull herself through one open door and then when Finn and others open the door the outer door is shut. A structure we have seen in Science Fiction/Fantasy movies for 50 years.

    What is the issue with Luke put himself in exile when he lost his sisters and best friends son to the dark side. Think about that to many you are the savior of the universe and you lose your nephew to the dark side. You also momentarily think about ending his life because of what you see in a vision. Remember Luke sees visions of the future. Like his father did before him. So he feels totally ashamed and puts himself in self exile. Finally all of this was done in TFA crawl and Han's dialogue to Rey and Finn. Han says people who know him best "think" he went to find the Jedi temple. They dont even know for sure.
     
    #75 KeithF1138, Feb 6, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
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  16. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    I really love the Leia scene. I'm not sure I understand the criticism of it. I guess it looks odd to some people, but how should it have looked. She's using the force to pull herself towards the ship. Plus, the awesome foreshadowing of Holdo's sacrifice.

    The people still upset about Luke are gonna get over it eventually. The Last Jedi is the story of Luke's last heroic moment. Once people get past their expectations they'll see it for what it is.... and amazing end to Luke's story.
     
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  17. ThisIsNoCave

    ThisIsNoCave Rebel Trooper

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    There is so much to digest here because Luke's story is far from simple and clear-cut.

    Luke was on Ahch-To for numerous reasons. He went there in part to learn more of the history of the Jedi. In doing so he might be able to get to the roots of what the Jedi had been and perhaps get a sense of where the Jedi had gone wrong. But he also stated clearly to Rey that he had gone there to die.

    Luke also went to Ahch-To to escape from his shame. He saw the rising darkness within Ben and recognized his complete failure in training his nephew, his family. That's a universal theme that isn't unique to Star Wars. When a parent or guardian fails a child and knows it? I cannot think of a more profound sense of despair that they might feel. Luke can view his failure through the unique lens of foresight that he has thanks to his Force abilities. And since he knows what happened when Vader was unleashed upon the galaxy? He knows the pain and suffering that someone with power like Vader or Ben Solo can inflict upon countless innocents.

    Luke's failure is compounded when he contemplates murdering Ben. Looking at it objectively it's a horrific act for an uncle to kill his nephew, an adolescent, in his sleep. And we can contemplate a somewhat modern parallel: what if one of us could travel back to the 1920's and eliminate a certain Austrian before they could rise to power? An act that might have saved millions of lives by simply taking one? Many people, if presented such a scenario with the knowledge of what would come if they did not act, would probably take what they saw as necessary action. But in Luke's case? This is his nephew. This is his sister's son. How could he do this?

    But Ben awoke. He fought Luke and incapacitated him. He burned the training temple, killed half of the students and took more off with him. And because he saw his uncle through a lens of fear, Ben Solo thought that he was right to do all of it.

    Luke seems to have wound up on Ahch-To with a sense of resignation. Even though he knew the history of how Darth Sidious had risen to destroy the Jedi and create an Empire, he was unable to keep history from repeating itself. Darkness rose again with Snoke, Kylo Ren and the First Order. And Luke was filled with his own internal conflict even after going into his self imposed exile: a search to find the place where the Jedi Order began, but he also cut himself off from the Force.

    So why would Luke die? All of these failures weighed heavily upon him. But upon learning of Han Solo being murdered by his own son? And being reminded of his call to duty by R2-D2? Luke grudgingly agreed to train Rey. He revealed what had happened between him and Ben Solo. And he feared for what might happen to Rey if she opened herself up to the influence of Kylo Ren.

    Luke felt as though he had failed yet again. He went to burn down the tree. But when Yoda appeared to him and imparted his final lesson to Luke? Yoda helped Luke realize that his journey was almost at an end. He was truly a Jedi Master, and that the student can surpass the master and must move on.

    But then what about Leia? Luke summoned his strength and knowledge to say goodbye to his sister. And he also took the lesson of Obi-Wan Kenobi to heart: he would distract the enemy long enough for Leia, Rey and the remnants of the Resistance to escape, just as Obi-Wan had done on the Death Star long before that day on Crait. But that show of Force power would come at a price, for even Kylo Ren recognized that connecting himself and Rey through the Force across the stars required such strength that it could kill someone.

    And Luke truly showed his mastery. As he projected himself across the galaxy using the Force, he once again heeded the words of his other master, Yoda: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack". Luke's Force projection did just that, embracing that ethos of pacifism with purely defensive lightsaber dueling technique. And he let Kylo Ren rage on against him while the last members of the Resistance escaped. When he knew they were away and safe? He could finally let go. He had faith that Rey could carry on. And he could be at peace.

    Personally, I found Luke's story to be heartbreaking. Because he had been this idealistic youth who rose to do great things and helped take down an Empire. But even with all of his powers he could not escape tragedy. But he learned from his masters a deep internal strength and the value of passing on his knowledge, and if necessary, when to make a sacrifice so that others who are the new symbols of hope can survive.
     
    #77 ThisIsNoCave, Feb 7, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
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  18. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Couldnt have said it better myself. I bow down before you.
     
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  19. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    a wonderful post ;)
     
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  20. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    While I am on the opposite side of the argument than you as I am a fan of TLJ and the ST, I definitely respect your difference of opinions as your views are very mature. It is refreshing to see in a time when dislike is many times expressed in a manner of whining
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 8, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 8, 2019 ---
    The argument can be made that what the fans want or expect do not need to be considered when crafting the stories.
     
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