Why Disney understands the force...and Lucas didn't

This is an embarrassment of a thread.

 

I think that it is safe to say that Lucas' view of the Force adapted to tell the story of the PT or at least shared more of the Force. As odd as the Mitiachlorean revel was handled. It was part of Lucas' unfolding view of things. Further Lucas feared that the Force could devolve into "gobbledygook." Meaning he feared it would become purely a esoteric vapid spiritual matter. He wanted a bridge between what people feel when the Force flows through them and something provable. Further he wanted to ground Episode 1 in symbiosis which the Midachloreans are.

Now the ST is not just market studied. Its crafted by rabid fans for rabid fans. So beyond market research and focus grouping the films. You better believe the film makers are well aware of fan reaction to how the Force is handled.

 

I can answer you with a question.

Was Luke's (and by extension Leia's) "power" because he (they) was strong in the Force, or because being Vader's offspring, he *they) had a unique way of affecting Vader. In the end was it Luke's brute power that defeated Vader and the Emperor, or was it the fact that he was Anakin's child that tugged at the remaining threads of light that existed inside his father?

Yes, they could have trained another with just as much power than Luke, and that person might have killed Vader, but then they probably would have either been turned by Palpatine or destroyed. Vader saved Luke for the sole reason that Luke was his son, which is also what made Leia the second hope. Luke's strength was not his power in the Force, it was shaming his father by showing the bits of Anakin inside what he ought to have done from the beginning. Luke's virtue, even when tempted by the dark side, was that he loved his sister and his father, and he was willing to put his life on the line and double down that Vader would save him. He actually begs him (Vader, Anakin) while Palpatine electrocutes him.

Probably a big reason why so many fans take exception to some of Luke's portrayal in TLJ.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 23, 2018 ---

I'm not a fan of KK and Disney and the new direction they're taking. But if fairness, they needed to move away from the Skywalker legacy if they wanted to make more original stories. The ST is the last of the Skywalker saga because without Hamil, who isn't by any means young anymore, the Skywalker's lose their appeal (this is the non-story explanation). So it is part of the Skywalker saga in the sense that it shows how that bloodline, family story, ends. I think they bungled it to some extent (I think they could have ended the Skywalkers in a more appealing way) but they chose to make the story we have in TLJ.

So ending the Skywalker legacy was not to prove that the Force is hereditary or not, it was to end an arc of story telling that was limiting the creative team and our view of the GFFA. Having a continued SW saga without an explanation to where Luke and Leia (and by extension Han and chewie and R2 and Threepio... heck, even throw Lando in there) would have raised questions as to where those people were. Some of those one could argue could get off screen or short cameos, but Luke and Leia and Han needed more, and could create a more compelling story (not to mention fan service).

I'm personally at peace with the why, I'm not a fan of the how.

 

This is a valid argument re: what the Jedi wanted Luke to do. I've argued it myself in the past as an option. Although the direct evidence goes against it (Kenobi essentially telling Luke he must be kill his father & that Anakin wasn't redeemable). I've concluded however that the most likely and rational argument is that Yoda and Kenobi thought that Luke would have to kill Vader but simply trained him to be a Jedi and act as a Jedi should. And in the end, he does exactly that and it inspires his father and thus helps bring balance.

However, none of this really changes what I am saying. Regardless of what the Jedi wanted Luke to do, Luke was powerful because of who he was and where he came from. And he was definitely powerful - whether that meant he was the last hope in regards to his power or his connection to Vader. It doesn't matter. Luke was presumed to be powerful and have great potential as a Jedi because of his genes.

Why? Firstly, casting aside the PT and what we know as fact about the power of the Skywalker bloodline, even in the OT we are shown how Yoda has strong doubts about Luke. "He is too old". "He is reckless". "Now matters are worse". Had the Jedi trained someone else from birth then they wouldn't have had the same hang ups that Luke (and Anakin) had. They wouldn't have attachments. They wouldn't be reckless. I'm not denying that there is an element at play here where Luke is valuable because he can get close to Vader and the Emperor - but his power is at the heart of all this:

VADER
What is thy bidding, my master?

EMPEROR
There is a great disturbance in
the Force.

VADER
I have felt it.

EMPEROR
We have a new enemy - Luke
Skywalker.

VADER
Yes, my master.

EMPEROR
He could destroy us.

VADER
He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no
longer help him.

EMPEROR
The Force is strong with him. The
son of Skywalker must not become a
Jedi.

VADER
If he could be turned, he would
become a powerful ally.

EMPEROR
Yes. Yes. He would be a great
asset. Can it be done?

VADER
He will join us or die, my
master.

Again, whatever the Jedi reason for training Luke - he was also said to be powerful because of who his father was, ergo...midichlorians.

Yes - this turned out to be Luke's great strength and it's why he proved Yoda and Kenobi wrong. Luke's compassion was immense. And it trumped whatever Force powers he could conjure. But the point is that Luke was naturally very strongly connected to the Force - because of who his father was - because of his genes - because of the midichlorians.

 

I'm not convinced, nor am I necessarily saying you're wrong either.

Another factor as to why Yoda and Obi-Wan chose Luke was likely because of the rarity of finding force sensitive children. I'm not exactly sure how many Jedi's there were at the height of the Jedi Order, but I'm guessing 1000, maybe 10 000? Even if the latter, on a population of trillions, and them most likely being hunted or mined by the Empire, Luke and Leia were probably safer bets. Especially when you consider they didn't have t he resources the Jedi Order had access to in finding force sensitive children.

So for me I always understood that Luke was Obi-Wan's choice because they knew about him and none of the big bads did, plus he had access to Vader that none other would. Combined, no one could match Luke when it came to working the odds of success (my head canon also told me that Obi-Wan knew Luke and kept tabs on him. So Kenobi was able to look past Luke's flaws because he saw the quality over years of observation.). I think a lot of Yoda's trepidation was the bloodline, I think he thought Luke's love for his father would be used against him and have him turn. I think either Yoda didn't appreciate Luke's resolve, or if you want to believe in a wiser Yoda, maybe he foresaw two possibilities and his visible doubts were twofold, to egg Luke into making the right decision, as well as his own doubts.

Regarding the Emperor's and Vader's chat, I think Palpatine knew Vader planned to oust him (it is the Sith way after all) and thus again, Luke's power (or the threat of him) could have been somewhat exaggerated as he planned to use Luke to kill Anakin, and Luke replace him as his apprentice. A weaker apprentice at this point would have been fine since Vader had done most of the heavy lifting already.

The OT left a lot open to interpretation, so for many of us our head canon was developed over decades. My reasoning is apt to be as flawed as I perceive yours to be. In no way am I saying you're wrong, I'm just relaying my interpretation of events and possibilities.

In summary, Luke was central on 3 fronts. Obi-Wan and Yoda had no time or access to other force users and Luke had a near (because of Leia) unique access to Vader. For Vader, Luke was his son and he believed that combined they could overthrow Palpatine and rule together. For the Emperor, Luke could kill his father and take his place, or die. Either would have worked for Palpatine I'm guessing. I think all 3 fronts failed to see Luke's true strength was his resolve to redeem his father. His power could have been surmised from visions of the future that had him either as an apprentice to Palpatine, killing Palpatine, or killing Vader, or be apprentice to Vader. In all cases Luke was instrumental, thus his great power was surmised. He was indeed powerful, but not as all of the above had surmised.

 

Again, you're talking about what the Jedi had planned for Luke. I'm not denying that there are a number of potential things going on there. All I am saying is that Luke's power - the power that everyone said he had before he even started using the Force, was because of his bloodline. Sure, Luke was Kenobi's chosen one because he could get close to Vader, because of the attributes he saw in Luke over the years. Perhaps he believed Luke could redeem Vader but said the opposite as part of his training? There isn't a right answer to that. There are just two clear facts:

1. Yoda and Kenobi trained Luke to be the best Jedi he could be and in doing that hoped he would be successful. They were right. Luke acted as a Jedi should and rejected the Dark Side and showed complete selflessness and compassion. In doing this, it resulted in the destruction of the Sith.
2. Luke's powerful Force potential was because of his bloodline. This was always the case, even before Vader was written as his father. "The Force is strong in my family...".

We can debate everything else (and I'd like to in another thread as it's a fascinating discussion) but this is about Disney's interpretation of the Force. And personally, I see now divergence from what Lucas wrote in the OT:

The Force is available to anyone should they believe in it and train hard. Some people are born with a stronger connection to the Force than others and have the potential to be extremely powerful.

 

@master_shaitan @Sparafucile

You forget something: the light, the dark... sure.
But the Jedi - at least Obi Wan and Yoda - do believe in the will of the force too.

Therefore, they may have thought there was a "reason" if Luke and Leia were both born.
Not to mention that TCW addressed somehow the same issue in the Yoda's arc...
Yoda hears himself saying "There is another Skywalker"
He (Yoda) is told he's chosen to learn how to become a force ghost
(before order 66, before the twins are born) to pass on what he learnt.
Putting peaces together, after order 66, it must have been obvious for him
that the point was... the other Skywalker.

That is not to diminish the take about the bloodine... but to add something.
Bloodline is still a thing. Because let's face it: you may like or not
the Leia Poppins thing, but if she did that, is because she is Anakin's daughter...

 

Not sure what I missed tbh...

I’m saying that the will of the force is central here and that this is why the Jedi stick with Luke and teach him. They believe the force will bring Luke or Leia to them “when the time is right”. This is the big change of the Jedi between the pt and ot. This is the legacy of Qui Gon jinn.

My point is very simple really: yes, there are a million and one debatable things regarding why the Jedi waited for Luke and what they actually wanted him to do. All I am saying is that it has always been the case that everyone is connected to the force but some are born with a stronger connection than others and this means that midichlorians on some level have always existed.

But it is clear that his is just one element to being a Jedi and that it is more important to believe in it and work hard.

 

Lucas created the Force, no one understands it more than him. The rest is window dressing.

 

Maybe I wasn't that clear. I agree with you.. I spoke about one of the many reasons just to underline how the storytelling along
the years underlined that idea.

 

Luke didn't look all that powerful to me compared to other Jedi (out of story we can say it's because GL didn't have the ability to show it, but even still...) other than above (to well above) average light saber skills, I'm assuming he could mind trick (since he tried it with confidence and failed on Jabba, but didn't know Hutts were immune) and he can force choke and he has a limited force jump. Beyond that some telekinesis and that just about rounds out his array of powers. Pretty average stuff compared to other Jedi. I think his bloodline was important, but not because of the Force potential it gave him. Based on the amount of time Yoda and Kenobi had with him, I don't think they were able to give him much of a history lesson on Jedi and how the mechanics worked. So the whole "the force is strong in my family" might be more due to his lack of knowledge of the Force and Jedi.

Again, I disagree, but it's not because I necessarily think I have to be right, I just think there's a ton of wiggle room for writers to adapt the story either way. I think it's one way, you think it's another, and truthfully, we're probably both potentially equally right. My take though, based on what we've seen in the ST, is that they'll likely make Luke's bloodline less of a factor concerning his force raw power and potential. It's Schrodinger's cat all over again lol... before the OT and after.

There are in story and out of story mechanics at work. I think when all we had was the OT, you are probably right. But since then, they've been steadily moving away from that. Their ideas on the Force has evolved and there's enough there where they can easily backtrack and (I hate to say it) retcon it in a believable way. We just saw things from a certain point of view (I've also noticed they love that Obi-Wan line to justify stuff), in this case Luke's, who wasn't particularly well versed in Jedi lore or the Force.

So it's not so much that you're wrong based on what they initially intended (again, the door is very much open that they could make you right), but that you may be wrong based on where they now want to go. Beyond that, even if you are right, Anakin being a chosen one is a unique circumstance, so they can make you right that bloodline force power/potential only mattered because of that. Lastly, in the end we can discuss and argue to no end, because there's enough room for them (the writers) to make it whatever they want. Only time will prove either of us right or wrong, or both right or both wrong.

Then again, what do I know. I've gone through enough of SW with misconceptions and head canon that I doubt pretty much everything now lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 23, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 23, 2018 ---

Aren't they going for everyone has equal potential to have or use the force now? That's my take anyways. As long as they have faith, right? We don't know Leia's 30 some years between Rot J and the ST. Force pulling herself probably wouldn't' require that much training or power. I will stand on the bloodline was important more as a driving factor to affect Vader on a personal level, and not so much on power. If or when I'm proven wrong, I hope I gracefully concede, I just think there's enough there as of now for both views to be equally right. The cat is both alive and dead

 

That's more about the PT being made in an era where people demanded Matrix style fights and Lucas could CGI someone doing multiple backflips and somersaults. But sorry, to claim that Luke wasn't that powerful or that his family bloodline wasn't talked up in the OT is just plain wrong. We were constantly told that Luke was powerful and would become more powerful because of who his father was. To imply that the "Force is strong in my family" line means anything other than the Skywalker's have a strong connection to the Force, is quite disingenuous.

There is literally dialogue in TLJ where Luke speaks of "the mighty Skywalker bloodline"!

I don't know what else to say. Are you really suggesting that the Skywalker bloodline isn't powerful? I'm sorry, but that is just baseless. Even pre-pt, the Skywalker family was presented as being strong in the Force and that Luke was presumed to be potentially powerful because of who his father was. So regardless of the limits of that power, the genetic element was sown in then.

I've lost you. The PT and ST have made it clearer that genetics have a role. I'm confused now - are we debating the same thing?

Yeah, sorry - you've lost me!

My statement is this:

Everyone is connected to the Force. Some people are born with a stronger connection to the Force than others. If you have relatives that are strong in the Force then you'll likely have a naturally strong connection to it as well. In order to actually use the Force in powerful ways, you have to believe in it and learn about it. Work hard. Anyone can achieve this. But for some it comes easier and the power they can attain is greater, if they work hard for it. People connect to the Force through the midichlorians that exist within their cells. People are born with varying numbers of midichlorians. The more you have, the more connected you are to the Force. But you still have to believe in the Force and then learn to listen to and control the midichlorians to access it. Anakin was born either by being directly created by the Force (midis) to bring balance or by the Sith meddling with the Force and it reacting to that or simply, directly by the Sith manipulating the midichlorians to create him. Because of this, he was born with a midichlorian level that was "off the chart" and he passed this inherently strong connection to the Force down his bloodline - to Luke, Leia and now Kylo Ren.

The above has essentially existed from ANH - TLJ. It has just been made more explicit.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 23, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 23, 2018 ---

To a degree. But the Skywalker bloodline is an anomaly. Everyone else is essentially on a similar level in terms of their natural connection to the Force. Some beings, like Yoda, were the original geniuses on the level of the Beethoven's and Da Vinci's amongst us. Because of this natural connection to the Force, it meant that Yoda would find it easier to connect to the Force and if he worked hard, would become more powerful than most. For the rest, it is an even playing field but there are limits. There are some sportsmen who despite devoting themselves to their sport will never reach the top. Not because they don't believe it, but because they simply are not built to be at the top.

The Skywalker's were off the chart powerful. This was implied in the OT and made explicit in the PT.

But the theme of SW is that there is more to the Force than power. More to it than lifting rocks. It's about being compassionate and selfless - and that this is the true power. The point is though that in terms of raw power and being able to jump higher, lift heavier rocks etc - some people are genetically built to be able to do that better than others. The Force is available to everyone. It's just some people are born with a stronger connection to it than others. Hence why midichlorians have been a part of the idea since day one.

 

My statement is this:

Everyone is connected to the Force. Some people are born with a stronger connection to the Force than others. If you have relatives that are strong in the Force then you'll likely have a naturally strong connection to it as well. In order to actually use the Force in powerful ways, you have to believe in it and learn about it. Work hard. Anyone can achieve this. But for some it comes easier and the power they can attain is greater, if they work hard for it. People connect to the Force through the midichlorians that exist within their cells. People are born with varying numbers of midichlorians. The more you have, the more connected you are to the Force. But you still have to believe in the Force and then learn to listen to and control the midichlorians to access it. Anakin was born either by being directly created by the Force (midis) to bring balance or by the Sith meddling with the Force and it reacting to that or simply, directly by the Sith manipulating the midichlorians to create him. Because of this, he was born with a midichlorian level that was "off the chart" and he passed this inherently strong connection to the Force down his bloodline - to Luke, Leia and now Kylo Ren.

And mine (and where I believe Disney is going) is this:

Everyone is connected to the Force. Relatives and bloodlines have next to nothing to do with it. It's based on faith and what the Force wills, in which case some people could be born with a greater connection if the Force wills it. I think the hard work is to get your mind in the right place, not so much practice or exercise, those are merely tools to teach the lesson, but some people have the necessary view that they can skip those exercises. Midi's I'm not 100% sure how they factor in. Either you are born with them, or they increase as you use the force (or based on your belief in the force). It could very well be some of both. I don't think Anakin is the best example because anything regarding him can be retconned due to his unique circumstance. It's open as to whether Anakin passed down his powers, but even if he did, it does not matter to anyone else, because Anakin is a unique circumstance. I think we agree on the broad strokes, there are just some details I'm not sold on and you are. I've stated before you may very well be right on those details, but I think there's plenty of wiggle room for them to interpret it differently if they want to.

 

In most cases, yes. But some families are naturally more connected than others and pass this down through generations.

Indeed. See: Rey. Also, see: Anakin.

Everyone is born with them but they vary in levels. Yes - perhaps more do develop over time and training? Maybe. I doubt it.

It's not. Even in the ST Luke speaks of the mighty Skywalker bloodline.

But did you not pick up on all the stuff about bloodlines in TLJ? Luke made a specific reference to it. Kylo Ren is powerful and has immense raw power, because of the bloodline.

 

Having people with different midichlorian counts very definitely contradicts with the idea in the article in question. I think midichlorians originally were equally part of every living things, and no one had "more" than anyone. Lucas just made that up as a plotpoint to make Anakin and the PT seem more important...

If people's potential in learning the ways of the Force are biologically handicapped, than not everyone can learn it.

It's also because of historical context. The "New Age" movement and it's "scientification" of religions seem to be something that influenced Lucas and the PT pretty much.

 

I haven't read the full article. I'm just saying that what I see Disney are doing now, isn't any different from what Lucas set up in the PT and OT.
Clearly, Luke was different from *most* other people in the OT. He had a potential of Force power that exceeded others. "The Force is strong in my family".
And so, right there we can see there is a genetic element to the idea of Force connection. That element is the midichlorians.

Clearly, in the OT alone, there was the notion that some people were more genetically stronger in the Force than others. And so this means that there was already the idea that there was *something* in people's DNA that made them different. This was fleshed out in the PT and the idea of the midichlorians was presented.

But again - everyone is born with a connection to the Force. Everyone has midichlorians. It's just some have more than others.
But it is just one element to becoming a Jedi. Having a lot of midichlorians alone won't do it. You have to train, be disciplined, work hard and believe.
If you do the above and have lots of midichlorians you will become very powerful. But as we see with Kenobi vs Anakin, if you work hard and have fewer midichlorians you can still match those with higher levels who don't master the Force.

For those with low-average levels of midichlorians - they can still connect to the Force if they believe in it and take the time to learn it (as the Jedi do). They probably won't ever get to Yoda's level but then, this isn't set in stone. Yoda might be better at lifting rocks, seeing the future etc but perhaps someone else has other attributes outside of the midichlorian levels, such as empathy, that provides them with skills Yoda might not have? What's more, Yoda physical handicap (short arse) means that he has to use the Force to compensate for it and so a normal sized being wouldn't need to waste Force power on making up for this short coming.

So in the grand scheme of things, midichlorian levels aren't usually that important. It exists as an issue and like I say, some are more powerful than others as a result. It's just the Skywalker family bloodline is extraordinary and so, in their case, it really matters.

We don't yet know what the deal is with Rey. Was she born with a high level of midichlorians that connected her to the Force? Did the Force choose her because of her personality to be the light that rises against the Dark Side? Clearly, she is a match for Kylo Ren and she learned the ways of the Force very quickly - so she must have something going on re: midichlorians that put her on a level with Ren. But at the same time, it is her belief, compassion, heart and determination that sets her apart and makes her the perfect counter to Ren. It might even be that Disney expand the concept of how one attains Force power by having it be that Rey is a conduit for the light side (rather than being born naturally powerful - genetically powerful) and that when Ren loses/dies, she might lose some of her strength too? But right now, what is clear is that Disney is on the exact same path as Lucas. They haven't deviated from that, yet.

 

That's actually a really good point.

Was Luke a hero because of his legacy and his bloodline?

Or was he a hero because he persisted against tyrants, against all odds, and won?

Honestly, I think both options respect Luke's legacy (and Anakin's) but the second is more interesting, in my opinion.

It's a pretty fascinating way to look at the trilogy, and it actually does make sense with the current context of canon. Sure, we have Ahsoka, Ezra, and Kanan running around mere years before Yavin, but Luke is the ultimate one who destroys the Empire. In past views, it's because he was a chosen one, but consider this:

What if Luke was just a regular guy- still the son of Anakin, but not necessarily more naturally powerful in the force than anyone else with force sensitivity? What if his fight against the Empire was not aided by some magical destiny, but persistence of will?

Because in the end, it doesn't matter either way- even with the traditional interpretation of these films, Luke both survives on Bespin and wins at Endor because he is a Skywalker- but it's not necessarily because of his skill with a lightsaber, but because his father was unwilling to kill him. Luke was the Achilles heel of the Empire because he was Anakin Skywalker's son, but that still doesn't necessarily imply that this had anything to do with his force abilities. He represented what was once the good in Anakin, and that was a huge vulnerability in Palpatine's Empire.

 

I was thinking about that too... not saying that they are going to do it,
but given what's said in TLJ it is something that could be used in IX.