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Why is everyone here so obsessed with Darth Plagueis??

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by Kabe, Dec 20, 2015.

  1. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    read the posts above.
    here's the gist of it.


     
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  2. D-green

    D-green Rebel General

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    I have read all your posts and definition of canon is very clear since 2014. When Disney created new Star Wars Canon.
     
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  3. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    Anyway I've re-added it above. but it seems the general consensus is the films take president over all other? thats not my interpretation, thats what the wikis say thats why i quoted it.
     
  4. D-green

    D-green Rebel General

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    Nope you quoted definition of the old George Lucas canon.
    That is not true anymore since 2014. and creation of the new canon.
     
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  5. Marco Calrissian

    Marco Calrissian Clone Commander

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    the point is what you quoted "When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, " was in the expanded universe paragraph, so it refferred to the expanded universe before disney's acquisition , what you should take for the current canon is the last paragraph of the page
     
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  6. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    All that is saying is the film is the primary source. the novels are interpretive, based on the source material. this is quite clear?
    Movies are still the primary source, all are cannon, unless conflicting with the film then then film takes priority.

    remember they have only reset all the old cannon because of the new movies.
    this is still inline with the main quote i used and provided a ref for. its the reference used by the starwars Wookieepedia as well.
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon


    This is the wikipedia page
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon


     
    #86 FallenAngel, Jan 12, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
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  7. Marco Calrissian

    Marco Calrissian Clone Commander

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    Yeas I understand that, but that is said in the paragraph about the old EU, not the new one, in the new everything is on the same level, at least for now, obviously if there will be some discrepancies the movies will be the canon (in the TFA novalitazion some dialogues are not the same since it was based on an early script, so it's not the exact same of the movie in every word, and the canon dialogue is the one from the movie, but everything else that happens in the book and doesn't happen in the movie is canon).
    In any case, the fact that movies are or aren't "more canon" than the books/comics doesn't change the fact that Plagues being Palpatine's master is not in every way a contraddiction to the movies, since the movies are not clear on this reguard and leave everything to speculation. Is Palpatine telling lies, "half-truths" or the truth? we don't know, is up to the books and the new expanded universe to clear those things, and for now the explanation is that Plagues is Palpatine's master (as it was in the old EU).
    We can argue what we would have preferred(plagues be a legends or Palpatine's master), since both would have make sense, but saying that one of the 2 options doesn't make sense and contraddict the movies is not fair.
     
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  8. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    i understand what you are saying, and agree in most part, the movie and the book may differ in small ways, but i suspect not on key plot point?
    i do differ thou about the clarity of the prequels as they are quite clear. palpatine was not plagues apprentice.
    this is certainly up for interpretation, but only if you say "every statement some one makes, can be disregarded because there could be lying"

    The initial thread was, why is everyone so interested in plagues. and most where speculating it could be snoke.
    At this point the two very much do contradict each other, and the argument is rested specifically on the palpatine/apprentice argument. This is the the first reason the film needs to pull rank as it where, lol. because they are very clear, for the facts stated though out this thread.
    1.Legend
    2. Only one person (fact) as appose to (apprentice/master) (myth)
    3. the emperor didn't know how to do the things taught to plagues apprentice.
     
    #88 FallenAngel, Jan 12, 2016
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  9. Veradun

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    You are simply canonically wrong, until canon is changed. Palpatine was Plageuis' apprentice.

    You also are misinterpreting the word "legend", improperly using the word "myth", and misapplying the word "contradiction".

    You also are assuming as 100% fact that Plagueis taught his apprentice everything that Plagueis knew. This requires you to believe Palpatine was telling the truth in this case. Given that Palpatine did not have a penchant for telling the truth (not to mention arrogant and overconfident), it remains an open question whether that was the case.

    Again, you simply need to go into the Plagueis in the Sequel Trilogy thread and read and understand all arguments both pro and con:

    https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet.com/index.php?threads/darth-plagueis-in-the-sequel-trilogy.190/
     
    #89 Veradun, Jan 12, 2016
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  10. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    i am not misrepresenting anything. i am DIRECTLY QUOTING the clip. its a LEGEND
    your trying to bend things to fit your theory.
    The tragedy of darth plagues the wise. i won't split hairs with you on the finer points between a myth and a tragedy, (thou some one could have possibly done that to lucas) ok i was paraphrasing. fair point.



    just watch these and tell me what you think one after the other.

    Even if plagues was palatines master, he is clearly telling anikin the truth there, he has nothing to gain from lying, he has just converted anikin?

    having led anikin to believe he already knew how to do these things, it would have actually been in his interest to acknowledge he knew how to do them, which he doesn't. because it was a LEGEND.

    and even if you go as far as palpatine being plagues apprentice it wouldn't matter, palpatine would have killed plagues having not been taught anything to do with saving the ones you care about and creating life as palpatine just told anikin. or do you choose the bits from the story that only make sense to your point
    LAST POINT
    Anikin had just saved palpatine and converted and pledged his allegiance. palpatine is more powerful and has no reason to lie to anikin. he doesn't know because it's not him. the end
    [​IMG]


    this is what i feel like talking to these plagues is snoke people. lol
     
    #90 FallenAngel, Jan 12, 2016
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  11. King3000

    King3000 Rebel General

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    Everyone is just rolling with Plagueis because they can't figure out whats actually going on. But yes of course Disney are keeping Snokes background super secret until at least Episode VIII where it turns out he was everyones guess all along.

    Disney 2015 - "Snoke is secret"

    90% of fan theories - "Snoke is Plagueis"

    Disney 2017 - "Snoke is Plagueis SUPRISE"

    100% of fans "So predictable LOLZ"
     
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  12. D-green

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    Like it is said several times on this topic. All comics, novels and books are equal canon as movies in Disney Star Wars universe.
    Movies are not more important in the new canon.

    ROTS and Tarkin do not contradict in any way. They complement each other. In Tarkin we learn more about Darth Plagueis.
     
  13. FallenAngel

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    tarkin sucks!
    ROTS paints the sith as having a rich history full of myths, allegories and legends.
    Tarkin just interprets what he though the films where saying (WRONGLY) and destroys that by making it literal. essentially what the church did with the bible. haha
     
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  14. FotisKaragian

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    I have some issues with Snoke being DP.

    1) Where was he all that time after he was "killed" by Sidius? Regaining strength or physical form seems way too Voldemort or Sauron to me...

    2) If he is Plagueis why is he still using an alias? An alias would matter before his goal to convert Ben and destroy Luke's academy was achieved. It is like if Sidius was still pretending to be Senator Palpatine in the OT.

    3) If he knew how to cheat death and taught it to Palpatine then the latter may be alive as well. I don't think that he would kill his master before learning everything.

    I think that the DP theory has way too many holes to be filled so that it can be credible.
     
    #94 FotisKaragian, Jan 12, 2016
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  15. D-green

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    Well Darth Sidious indeed was still Emperor Palpatine for the public in OT, not Darth Sidious. Actually public did not know that Emperor Palpatine is a Sith.
     
    #95 D-green, Jan 12, 2016
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  16. Marco Calrissian

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    I don't think snoke is plagueis either, but I'm convinced that he's palpatine's master and there culd be a resaon why Palpatine didn't know how to cheat death even if his master did know, and is that palpatine killed plagueis because he didn't want to teach his apprentice that power ;) As I already said in "lords of the Sith" is stated that an apprentice can and have to kill his master if he refuses to teach him all the knowledge of the Sith(obviously he also has to be strong enough to do it), and that a master can kill his apprentice if he's too weak
     
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  17. FotisKaragian

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    You are right but in this case it serves the purpose of ruling the galaxy as an Emperor and continuation of the Chancellor. So far we have no knowledge that Snoke is the public face of the FO nor does he hold a position in the senate or something. He seems to be in the shadows.
     
  18. D-green

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    Actually we know that he is. He is a Supreme Leader of the First Order ( that makes him a public figure ). Leia and Han Solo know that he exist.
     
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    They know him as an entity, a name, but what do they really know of him? They only seem to know that he is the man responsible for their son's fall to the dark side. That's all. And we don't know if everyone in the galaxy knows him as a Supreme Leader of the First Order, only Kylo Ren and General Hux reffer to him as such...
     
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    Palpatine is not the narrator of the saga, so its up to the viewer to believe what he said.

    Myth and tragedy? Did you mean myth and legend?


    He has everything to gain by spinning the truth. How could the Chancellor know anything about the "current state of Sith" without implicating himself right away? How to get around that? Call the story a Legend.

    Or, he called the tale a legend to cover up the fact that he didn't learn all that Plagueis could teach him before killing him. Its possible; especially with the new canon being blank, that Sidious killed Plagueis because he refused to teach him all that he knew.

    The gyst of Palpatine's Opera-house sales-pitch is this: he wanted to cement Anakin's lack of faith in the Jedi and open him up to the possibility that the Sith could provide him with the answers that Skywalker sought.

    What gets lost is the fact that Anakin went along with Sidious all while planning to kill the Chancellor for his duplicity. "I'm stronger than the Chancellor. We can overthrow him." His plan was to convince Padme of his moral authority, then with her blessing, go kill Sidious for trying to assassinate his wife for the past 10 years. Kenobi wrenched that. After Padme's death, all that Vader had left was Darth Sidious.
     
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