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Why Palpatine returning makes sense.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

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    So I have been thinking about whether it was a good idea to bring Palpatine back in TROS. And I am in agreement with JJ that it makes sense. The best way to conclude the saga would be to take something from the prequels and bring it full circle. In Revenge of the Sith we have the opera room scene in which we are introduced to the ability to cheat death. With that seed planted, it makes sense to do something with it in the Sequel Trilogy. We come to find out that somehow Palpatine figured out how to cheat death. And by cheating death, he is also able to undo the prophecy fulfilled by Anakin. And strangely enough, it’s his own granddaughter that takes him out. It works ok for me. But Return of the Jedi was a better ending back when it was still the end.
     
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  2. Messi

    Messi Force Attuned

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    It makes sense for the story, I agree with you.

    My problem with Palpatine is that in my mind I was kind of tired of his presence.

    I didn't like how he was portrayed in ROTS. With lightsaber (JJ was clever just giving him lighting powers in ROTS) and jumping around with Yoda on that duel. Also the scene of his face melting was weird.

    So, when I realised that he really came back in TROS I was like: "Oh this guy again? Not very creative.".
     
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  3. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel General

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    I agree with you both. It does makes sense to bring back Palpatine when taking into account the events of the prequel trilogy, as we've never actually seen the realization that the Sith could somehow cheat death. Well, TROS (although not fully explained) gives us that.

    The downside to me though is that I left the theater missing a sense of real closure after watching TROS, which was the end of the saga. So, I fully agree with @Adam812 that Return of the Jedi had a better "ending" in that regard. As far as I know Palpatine can still be lurking somewhere in the galaxy. Perhaps another clone, another redundant life support system, etc. I didn't like that.

    The other issue, that is related with a lack of real sense of closure, is that Return of the Jedi feels strange now. "Oh, so he didn't die after all.". Also, lots of doubts and things to speculate, like what really happened when Darth Vader "killed" Palpatine? Did he became the "One Sith" for some brief minutes before he died? However, if technically Palpatine didn't die in that scene, then no, I guess Darth Vader did not became the "One Sith".

    And this is my pet peeve with JJ's work. I like his work to a good extent but I always miss a sense of closure from what he does, and it seems there's always many loose ends and unexplained things left hanging.

    So, does bringing back Palpatine make sense? Yes, it does, to a large extent, especially taking into account the prequels (specifically Revenge of the Sith).

    Was it needed and well done? I don't think so.
     
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  4. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    Tying of the Skywalker Saga in a nice bow by having the Palpatine thread running through it from start to finish is a very strong writing choice. (By contrast, to have Plagueis suddenly showing up in the last movie would just random and weird to 99,9% of the audience). I agree that Palpatine might feel a little forced for the ST, but he sure makes sense when viewed in the lens of all 9 Skywalker episodes.

    Any problems I have with TRoS -- (and after 3 viewings I must say that I don't have many) -- Palpatine returning is not one of them.
     
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  5. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    Palpatine did die in Return of the Jedi; he says so himself in The Rise of Skywalker.

    This notion that TRoS cheapens RotJ's ending is predicated on misconceptions.
     
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  6. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Force Attuned

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    Yes, I agree, but it is a funny (~strange) concept for people to get their heads around though I think - it appears that he both died and cheated death. Usually when someone is said to have cheated death we understand that to mean they continued living and avoided dying, whereas in Palpatine’s case it appears he both died but still cheated death because he “returned”.
     
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  7. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend

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    did he?
     
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  8. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    Technically he says: "I've died before". This is probably a reference to RotJ, right?
     
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  9. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Force Attuned

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    Always wiggle-room for future surprises, there is. :D
     
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  10. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Huh, I didn't catch that line. Neat!

    I know Poe's "somehow" line is often made fun of, but... I mean, I think it works all right.

    The movie never pretends to place importance on the how of it, and I kinda like that.

    It's sith magic. There's a giant sith cult, a sith army, a sith planet, and the lord of the Sith is back. Really, it's not terribly different than Sauron's attempt at returning in LOTR- if you're willing to make concessions for one's magical return, why not the other?
     
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  11. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend

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    Maybe, or a reference that his body died everytime he did this 'essence' transfer thing when he was killed by his appentice.
     
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  12. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    I believe that Sauron got at least some explanation of his return. The ring was Sauron and his life was in the ring. When his body was killed his soul or essence was in the ring already. He would always exist as long as the ring existed. I believe there's also some discrepancy between the books and the movies on whether or not Sauron's body actually "died" in the first place. In the movies he's just depicted as the eye, but in the books many people refer to him physically going places, implying a body. In letters Tolkien referred to Sauron needing to build up a body over time and using some energy.

    With Palpatine we got nothing. Also, just to nitpick even more, the explanation provided by Dominic Monaghan's character is just him speculating. He doesn't actually know anything; he wasn't there. The only thing resembling an explanation is Palpatine's words about the dark side being a path to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. That's super, duper vague.
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Sure, and maybe I'm being too reductive, but what I mean is it all really boils down to "magic did it".

    Like, even then we don't know the specifics of how the ring worked because it's magic. But I'd say neither Star Wars nor Lord of the Rings have what's known as a "hard" magic system- it's more or less just used as a way to advance the plot in interesting ways, with interesting twists on the formula built into the DNA of the system.

    So while it's not explained specifically what happened to Palpatine, I don't really think it's needed beyond what we got.
     
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  14. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    I disagree that the way in which the Sith Masters achieve immortality/cheat death is complicated or strange.
     
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  15. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    In my opinion, the biggest problem with Palpatine’s return is that it undermines the PT and Anakin’s story arc.

    The story we had was that the chosen one made the ultimate sacrifice and destroyed the Sith, bringing peace and balance. Now the story is more like, the chosen one was sacrificed almost in vain, and then one more round of wars, and NOW there’s peace.

    If you ask me, the only hope of reconciling the ST with the PT was the comment Yoda made: “A prophecy that, misread, could have been.” I guess you could also try to retcon the chosen one to be Ben or Rey, but that idea undermines the PT even worse.

    But having said that, there is another way to look at it. In my opinion, 7 and 8 already strongly implied that Disney would basically be throwing the PT under the bus. If you just accept coming in that the PT and ST are not going to mesh very well, then Palpatine is a pretty cool character and TROS is a fun ride - you can just think of it as a different take without focusing on strict continuity.
     
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  16. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    This is yet another notion that is based entirely on a misconception.

    As with Palpatine confirming that he did in fact did at the end of Return of the Jedi, Anakin Skywalker vocally confirms to Rey that he did bring Balance by telling her, explicitly, to "Bring back the balance, as I did..." .
     
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  17. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    That's a funny kind of balance then. Anakin brought balance yet we had Snoke, the Knights of Ren & now an entire planet worth of dark side worshippers/admirers.
     
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  18. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    The Emperor, in the OT anyway, isn’t really a ‘character’ in the strictest sense. He’s mostly just a malevolent force. He personifies the darkside and the evil of the Empire. When Anakin casts his master out it’s symbolic of him casting out his own darkness and that of the galaxy.

    The premise of this new trilogy though is that the evil that plagued the galaxy wasn’t truly defeated. It just lay dormant and has now returned. So, from that perspective, it makes sense for the figure, which represented that evil to start with, to have done effectively the same thing and now represents the darkness in our new hero.

    I don’t love it. I’d personally have preferred the struggle be restricted to our two leads and explore that dynamic more, but it does definitely make sense. No argument there.
     
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  19. SuperBenKenobi1992

    SuperBenKenobi1992 Rebel General

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    Finally someone with a brain hahaha. I have been thinking this same thing ever since The Force Awakens. I came up with an idea where it would be revealed that Snoke was the actually Palpatine who failed to kill his master and that the Palpatine we knew was plagues in disguise as Palpatine which could help explain why he transformed but after Rise I started noodling around with the idea of him being Darth Bane. In Rise he says "I am all the Sith" I heard that and I was like woah what if Darth Bane killed the Sith and then made the rule of two and as been body hopping up until Palpatine. Take it a step further, What if bringing balance to the force meant bring about the end of Darth Bane who had cheated death for far too long. The literal definition of Bane is a cause of great distress or annoyance. The Jedi are always saying I feel a great disturbance in the force, which has a similar connotation to it. Just spit balling here.
     
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  20. RoyleRancor

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    For me it comes down to Palpatine being established as deceased and bringing him back with little to no explanation is just lame. It works for a new entity IMO but not one you establish as dead previously. It comes off as lazy and cheap to me.

    If they wanted Palpatine there, and it does make thematic sense for him to be involved somehow, it needed seeded in TFA. Not in books or comics. In the movies. It wasn't.
     
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