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Why Palpatine returning makes sense.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Imagine if they just gave answers instead of spending the first act and change doing wayfinder heists just as an excuse for Rey, Finn and Poe to be together. That time was spent on the Palpatine of it all. Giving Adam something to do with his time.
     
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  2. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    Right? But let's face it - Kylo meeting up with Palps was just like Luke and Palpatine in Dark Empire so perhaps that's why it all happened off screen? Sigh
     
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  3. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Indeed. Star Wars has always had a really rough time between print and screen. There's a decent rift between the two, and there's a bit of a bite and edge between fans on some of the differences because of that.

    My take has always been Lucas' take. Film. Done.
    The rest is merchandise.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  4. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    It's the nature of the different mediums, right? Books and movies are two separate experiences trying to do two separate things, even when they're telling the same story. The novelization SHOULD contain additional detail not in the film. That's the point . . . isn't it? Actually, I've never read any of the print adaptations, so maybe I'm way off here . . . as per usual :)
    Ew, like the somewhat problematic 'holy trinity' simile.
    Good stuff, George. 'Our father, who art in Marin'
     
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  5. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    I tried reading the books a very long time ago. I learned something very quickly. I...just...don't...care.

    Lucas aside, because he has .... interesting .... reasons for his views, my comparison stops with 'Film is what I care about', and departs after that.
    My reason is very simple.
    I like what Star Wars does as a film, and reading Star Wars, for me, is about like thinking, "If you loved the painting, you should read the book!"

    What I love about the painting is what it does via the medium.
    Star Wars could be a story about trying to get to a burger joint before it closes and it wouldn't much matter to me. It's how it tells a story as a film that captures my imagination and interest; not so much the story itself. Just as I don't really care what Monet painted, it's how he goes about it that I'm captured by.

    I don't think this will strike you as odd, because you know my odd ticks and tastes.
    I'm that guy who, when asked to write a report for English class on The Raven, handed in the print out of The Raven we were originally given, but with every alliteration, rhyme, syllabic beat pattern, rhythm, and thematic parallels highlighted and line connected to the others which connected to it - looking something like a conspiracy map vomited on the poem.
    And I'm the guy who wrote a poem entirely in gibberish to convey the beauty of the medium of poetry by removing the ability to think about the words, and only rely on the phonetics, beat, rhythm, and tone.

    So I don't think it's all that shocking that someone like this doesn't see much interest in variant iterations of a story in different mediums from the one that originally caught their interest.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  6. Apollus08

    Apollus08 Rebelscum

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    Death Star 2 blew up. It didn't crumble. It blew up. Like an explosion.

    I was at Celebration and experienced Ian McDiarmid's "Roll it again". I remember thinking -- "uh-oh" -- which was a shame... since Palpatine was previously my favorite Star Wars character. I was worried his return wouldn't make sense and would only rush a movie that needed a full movie's worth of content already.

    I feel betrayed by the fact that Palpatine was brought back and not explained to me. Not until last week, I learn about some novel/comic-book/whatever that says Palpatine is a clone. UUUUUUUUUGH.

    Palpatine could've been a cool villain to bring back if he and his return were integral to the story throughout this trilogy. It certainly could make sense in the overall saga arc.

    But I'm mad.

    I've been die-harding for 8 years now. And heavy-casualing my entire life before. (making those phrases up now) I've been sticking up for Disney, Lucasfilm, Star Wars, Last Jedi!

    I spent hundreds of hours last year writing a Star Wars screenplay in my spare time for fun. I've put so much time and passion into that project. (btw I'm releasing it as an art and a storyboard soon)

    I only say this because I put a lot of care into it. Whether or not my screenplay is good... it at least makes sense.

    Palpatine's return did not make sense the way it was done.

    It wasn't necessarily a bad idea, but the execution was shamefully bad. I'm not sure who is really to blame. I'm inclined to blame the screenwriters or producers, but it could've easily been corporate box office goals.

    I'm sure this post will upset a lot of people. I just don't care anymore. As Star Wars fans, I think we're responsible for letting the world know if we don't like Star Wars. It's because I love it. I want Disney/Lucasfilm to know they've gotta do better if they want more of my money.

    I expect the creators of Star Wars material to be striving to create generational masterpieces. Even if they don't achieve it, they better be trying. Or fire them. :)
     
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  7. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    I don't know.
    It made perfectly fine sense to me...

    Sorry you had such a hard time with it, though.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  8. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    Actually, there was plenty that contradicted canon and other legends material. To name a few others off the top of my head:
    • Plagueis puts the idea of creating a clone army into Sifo-Dyas' head. TCW completely contradicted that when it revealed that Sifo-Dyas came up with the idea entirely on his own after seeing a vision of the future, and Dooku executed him on Sidious' orders.
    • Mother Talzin isn't Maul's biological mother, and just someone who wanted his power. His mother gives him to Sidious to protect him from her. TCW contradicted that when it revealed Talzin was indeed Maul's biological mother, and Sidious kidnapped him to further his goals.
    • Plagueis was alive during TPM. Canon has revealed Plagueis wasn't even alive way back before Sidious even kidnapped Maul, and that was 20 something years before TPM.
     
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  9. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Really think these are kind of on the edges. What canon has revealed Plagueis wasnt alive. What weird is all of the Clone Wars was done before LFL declared Darth Plagueis non canon. Especially when you realize that animation scripts are done years before the episodes release.
     
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  10. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    The Plagueis novel - like everything else in the Legends novel continuity - was "Canon" in name only because information in the films and TCW took precedence and in any case where something from a novel contradicted something from a film or TCW, that film or TCW automatically "won out".
     
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  11. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Jedi Commander

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    but that's sort of the beauty of it, no? Legends was mostly self-regulating. If somebody wrote something too goofy (such as Palpatine's three-eyed child or my namesake) the rest of the EU could just kind of . . . ignore it. The system was complicated if you tried to quantify it (ergo we had G canon, B canon, etc etc) but you didn't really have to do that if you didn't work for Lucasfilm. Continuity had a way of figuring itself out and favorite the parts that really felt like Star Wars.

    But current canon always risks painting itself into a corner. The goofy things can't be ignored, they have to count as much as the rest.
     
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  12. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    It's never been explicitly stated, but the magnitude, length, and complexity of Palpatine's plans in canon go back decades, and in such he's made many deals with powerful figures, shared Sith knowledge and power with others, taken Maul is as an apprentice etc. Ventress was considered a threat by Sidious in less than half the time Maul had been training under Sidious. You honestly think Plagueis didn't realise what Sidious was doing for 13 years?
    See, I thought that too at first, but then TROS came out. JJ Abrams' blatant disregard for any canon material that came before caused a myriad of contradictions. To list a few of them: Bloodline explicitly stated that Leia had never undertaken any Jedi training whatsoever as she desired to remain a politician and help the galaxy instead of assisting Luke in rebuilding the Jedi Order, Snoke and his goals were entirely unrelated to Palpatine or the Sith, Poe's parents died when he was nine and when old enough, he chose to join the New Republic navy. Now since TROS, Leia did train to become a Jedi but abandoned the path after seeing the death of her son, Snoke's goals are 100% related to the Sith and Palpatine's contingency, Poe's parents died at age fourteen and he ran away to become a spice runner instead of joining the NR straight away.

    It's obvious nothing matters but the films and TV shows, like the old canon rules. 'Canon' is nothing but a marketing farce.
     
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  13. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    And this is why I stop reading the books, comics or playing the games. Either the new information is just a tidbit/tease or the new stuff is contradicting itself. That's bad. Really bad.
     
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  14. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    This statement is a blatant falsehood.

    The Story Group is not going to allow somebody to create these kinds of "contradictions" because it is their job to maintain a single non-contradictory continuity of lore, and so I guarantee that even if stuff seems like it's contradictory, the Story Group has worked out an explanation within the lore as to how and why it isn't, even if it takes years for that explanation to be revealed publicly.
     
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  15. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    [​IMG]

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  16. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    Don't these contradictions stand for now though? How can the age at which one's parents die be "fixed"? It's a hard date, he was either nine or fourteen, unless they died at different times; I haven't read the books. If the book said that Leia had no Jedi training at all but TROS shows that she did, how can that be fixed? I'm pretty sure Luke even said it was her last night of training before becoming a Jedi, but I'm not 100% on that. Those aren't vague things that can be fudged. They either happened or they didn't.
     
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  17. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    I get the sentiment, but shared continuity is only part of the appeal, right? I mean, I genuinely enjoyed ‘Lost Stars’ and ‘Bloodline’ and ‘Princess of Alderaan’ (there’s a theme there). Not because of their canon implications, but because they were enjoyable stories unto themselves. That’s all I’m after. I don’t need them all to fit together like happy little puzzle pieces, but I get the charm of it.

    I also get the push back. They made a huge show of rigidly regulating what did and didn’t count. Faltering on that pitch in any way is going to chafe some a tad.
    Actually ‘Bloodline’ isn’t that cut and dry about it. When a fellow senator asked why she didn’t become a Jedi like her brother, she said it was because she felt she could do more good for the galaxy as a politician. She didn’t say she never ever ever ever ever received any Jedi tutelage from Luke of any kind . . . ever. Just that she decided not to follow that path at some point. It’s not like there was anything compelling her to be totally truthful either. This is the same person who kept her bio dad’s identity a secret for decades after all. Wiggle room.

    In fact in Wendig’s ‘Life Debt’, which takes place fairly close after ROTJ, we’re told Luke had instructed her on how to at least meditate and reach out with the Force - which she actively does . That’s not nothing. Luke was supposed to be trapesing about the galaxy relic hunting all that while though, so . . . . . . . . I don’t know. Maybe they had a VERY productive long weekend at some point :D

    I understand where @GingerByte is coming from though. The distinct impression I got from the new canon material was that Leia’s forciness was largely limited to intuition and empathy. Not because she was restricting herself (for some reason), but because that’s as far as she’d progressed. Meh, my shoulders have all the shrugs :rolleyes:
     
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  18. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Attuned

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    ...which would be about the same length of time Luke spent with Yoda on Dagobah, so seems perfectly reasonable to me!
     
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  19. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Not a bad point. 'Crash course in the Force' :)
     
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  20. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Attuned

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    It's probably all anyone needs. It's why I never bought into the 'Rey is a Mary Sue' nonsense. Nobody 'needs' years and years devoted to learning the Force. The need for a whole childhood devoted to Jedi training is a myth created by... well... the Jedi. It's just another of the things the Jedi did 'wrong'.

    Jedi training is just the teaching of a simple philosophy which can be broken down into a few wise soundbites. Which is what Yoda does. Remember them, heed them, and abide by them and you'll be fine. The abilities it brings you can explore and discover by yourself.

    After all, if Jedi training is so important to being able to use the Force, then who taught the first Jedi?
     
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