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Why Palpatine returning makes sense.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. SuperBenKenobi1992

    SuperBenKenobi1992 Rebelscum

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    It gives me LOTR vibes like the looming threat of evils return, and now the heroes must prevent that from happening. And this common enemy bring Kylo Ren and Rey together pushing Ben back to the Light. Its actually quite powerful imo. I just wish it had been more developed during the whole trilogy and not just slammed into us at the vary end. at least have TLJ end with the Emperors message instead.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 23, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 23, 2020 ---
    There was alledgedly a 5 minute scene by J.J to help explain how he was "alive". but apperently Disney got in the way and made an alternate theatrical version that we got. So J.J's vision didn't even get to be fully realized.
     
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  2. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    1) Snoke and the Knights of Ren are not Sith
    2) There's been nothing that I have seen to indicate that the people on Exogol are Force-sensitive themselves, merely that they worship the Sith

    Anakin did bring back the Balance, but it wasn't permanent (few things actually are ever permanent).
     
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  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    giphy (23).gif

    Ah yes the super nefarious "JJ Cut" nonsense.
    There probably was a scene and it probably was cut. It wasn't a nefarious move by Disney to remove it. The movie is already incredibly bloated and exposition heavy. It was probably cut by the editing team (which included Abrams) because they deemed it unnecessary.

    Every movie ever has cuts and editing.
    When it's a big budget film, there are bound to be more hands involved.
    Every movie has a "director's" cut. They are excessively long and need cutting down.
    Most directors admit this themselves.
     
    #23 RoyleRancor, Jan 23, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
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  4. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    Ok then? What is the balance part of the prophecy? Wiping out the Sith or completely wiping out the dark side. Or dark & light in balance? Because I know Snoke & the KoR ain't Sith but they are dark siders.

    Also & entire planet of Sith followers & in 30 years not one Force Sensitive birth?
     
  5. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    Wiping out the Sith (at least from the perspective of the Jedi).

    If we're looking at it from a wider, more metaphysical perspective, bringing Balance meant Anakin doing what he did on Mortis, but for the galaxy at large, which is to "wipe out the Dark Side", even temporarily, and, in both cases, he did just that, since there is no indication, as far as I know, that the Knights of Ren or, as I mentioned, the people of Exogol were Force-sensitive or could actually harness the Dark Side.
     
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  6. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    I concur, wholeheartedly. Also, as far as I can tell, it wasn't seeded anywhere at all. I haven't read the new EU but thanks to SWNN I get to read about them. I have not seen any hint of Palpatine's return in any material at all since the Disney purchase.
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    there's stuff about contingency plans in Aftermath and Battlefront story mode. But nothing like this
     
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  8. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    Didn't the contingency stuff consist of orders to be carried out in case he died? I haven't read them, but I was under the impression that there was no mention of him planning to return or anything hinting at his return.
     
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  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Yes lol. It doesn't make a ton of sense, story wise.
     
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  10. Josh

    Josh Rebel Official

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    it really doesnt, but that wouldnt be that big of a problem if the movie at least tried to explain to us how it happened, or even better if there were some hints throughout this trilogy.
    But nada niente, in the way the movie presented the story, its just lazy writing which imo weakens the ending of RotJ, because it was simply not earned.
     
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  11. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Agreed. It’s pretty unseemly and unfortunate evidence that this wasn’t the original story.

    So Palpatine had two competing contingency plans, independent of one another, both revolving around secretly amassing a massive army in the Unknown Regions? One he’s leading personally and one he delegated to a test tube baby? ‘Hat on a hat’, guys. Pick one.
    I think what rankles folks is that that impermanence materialized in the very next generation. That achievement, foretold in prophecy, only bought them a few decades of balance? Wow, that’s kind of less impressive than we were all imagining, yeah?

    But I don’t know how you get around that. If you’re continuing the story from ROTJ, you’d have to undo it’s finality in some way, right? No matter what, evil would have had to have persisted in some significant enough capacity to warrant telling this story. That would have diminished Anakin’s role regardless. Or maybe I’m not being creative enough. Happens a lot.
     
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  12. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Jedi General

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    Perhaps instead of Ghost Yoda, Anakin's Ghost remains until the real Phantom Menace is found and destroyed? Thus, the end of RotJ becomes the beginning of the restoration and nine finishes the job? I'm sure there are other ways to have explored that without outright undoing it. There was far more to the Empire than just the Death Star. Who better to guide the new Jedi than the redeemed Sith Lord who killed his Master to save his son?

    To launch the Sequels, a galaxy wide broadcast from an unknown voice might have been an interesting intro, no?

    The Plagueis Novel established that the force was tipped out of balance when Sidious and his Master worked in harmony. THAT to me; in itself, is the most unnatural Star Wars thing. Ever. In light of that book: if anyone deserved to be cloned, it was Plagueis.... if anyone were capable of cheating death, certainly Plagueis would have made sense. The old argument(s) about casual fans not remembering the Opera Scene or knowing anything about the character also known as Hego Damask are just noise at this point. Especially after Snoke's underwhelming existence.... Plagueis, his clones or, both he and Sidious healing each other to live eternally would have been more interesting to me. Sith bros, for everlasting-life or something.


    Seeing the Canted Circle's boss on teh BIG would have broken my photo receptors... no doubt.


    I don't love or hate TROS, its middle of the road to me.


    It works, it concludes the saga...


    it just didn't wow me along the way to the end.
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    As written, it's not really directly about him returning.

    The discussion on Shah-tezh (Star Wars chess) involves Palpatine discussing how if the Imperator is lost, the board must be wiped clean to start again (or something to that affect.

    At the time the book came out, most people figured this referred to the destruction of the Empire and weakening of the Republic to make way for the First Order. Now, I think it could be read as the absolute weakening of the galaxy (both through the contingency and the First Order war) to pave the way for Palpatine's own return- when the game truly begins anew.

    I mean, who knows if this was what was originally intended (unlikely, really) but I think it retroactively fits pretty nicely.
     
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  14. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    IF, and only if, the intention was to conclude the "Skywalker saga", then the idea of Palpatine's return makes sense, if done well. It should have been hinted at all along. However, I personally don't recall the whole 9 movie collection being "the Skywalker saga" until the hype for TROS started. It was just "more Star Wars movies". The ST shouldn't have been part of "the Skywalker saga", it should have been the start of a new saga about Rey, Finn, Poe and all the rest. Bring in the original cast to pass the torch and give the new cast their own time to shine. Have a new threat. It doesn't have to be a force using threat. Let Rey and the new Jedi fight some other, creative, threat. Let the "Skywalker saga" end with ROTJ.
     
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  15. SuperBenKenobi1992

    SuperBenKenobi1992 Rebelscum

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    True but endgame was allowed to b 3hrs why vould rise be 3 hrs. I fully believe that the extra 30-45 they could have added could have covered a lot of the plot holes and unanswered questions
     
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  16. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Force Attuned

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    I know the prevailing understanding is the decision to bring Palpatine back wasn’t made until JJ was brought in to do TRoS (right? And that’s what I understood KK’s statement about “from the beginning” to mean) but I still think there are still plenty of things in TFA and TLJ that now function as hints towards Palpatine’s eventual reveal, even if not fully or even partly intended to be specifically that when those films were made. So does it really matter if it wasn’t planned in 2012?

    I’m saying, if we had no knowledge of behind the scenes drama, and judge it purely in the art itself, the films... are people still of the view there isn’t any build-up or suggestion Palpatine surviving isn’t one of the possible places the story ends up?

    I mean, that is still a fair opinion to hold, don’t get me wrong. But at the same time, I think most of the reasons fans speculated that Snoke might be Plagueis, for example, work just as well for Palpatine being behind Snoke with very little mental adjustment necessary IMHO.

    Personally I just don’t agree with the view that there is ‘no build-up’ to the revelation Palpatine has returned. I think it fits in beautifully.

    Could there have been more direct, obvious ‘seeding’ of the idea if it had been planned since before TFA? Sure. I get that, and I think it’s totally reasonable for people to wish there was more of that. But this idea that it’s some bizarre, completely out-of-left field solution to the story problem of Snoke being killed off by Rian Johnson is just not one I share at all, FWIW.
     
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  17. SuperBenKenobi1992

    SuperBenKenobi1992 Rebelscum

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    Actually even before disney bought star wars lucas dubbed himself the skywalker story. He always said it was about the family and the conflict with the dark side which manifeated for them as there main antogniat palpatine. When disney bought the franchise the said tgat vii-ix woyld be the next inatallment of the skywalker family saga. During the marleting of tfa in pretty much every interview the title skywalker family saga was used. It has and always has been the story of the skywalkers it why they gone out of there way to make it clear that the spinoofs like rogue and solo are not part of the story by taking out the crawl. By definition vii-ix would have to be skywalker stories not just star wars films.
     
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  18. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Jedi General

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    Amen. (Meant to include this earlier, lost in the edit.)
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    1. You can't compare two movies like that. The scene may have just not worked. It could have been clunky and brought the film to a halt to add this exposition. The scene with Phasma and Finn in TLJ that was cut is awesome. But I get why it was cut. It is clunky in the context of the film.

    2. The fact that it wasn't included means the information likely wasn't THAT crucial to it and likely wouldn't have changed anything for the people who did or didn't like it.

    3. If you need this sort of scene, it's a sign that the movie isn't efficient enough on it's own. Maybe instead of playing macguffin chase the first act of the movie they could have focused on this type of thing, like how the Avengers were solving time travel not the wayfinders and dagger that were ultimately pointless to the plot. See, when Endgame introduced Time Travel as a potential solution it took the time to explain it and you saw the process. When TROS brings Palpatine back it just breezes by it because there are too many macguffins to find to slow down for this very important thing!
     
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  20. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    Then I sit corrected! lol Even if Lucas called his movies the Skywalker saga, Disney didn't have to. It was pretty tidily wrapped up at the end of ROTJ. 7-9 are only Skywalker saga movies because Disney forced it, especially with the return of Palpatine. Skywalkers don't actually have much to do with these new movies. Luke's in them for all of maybe 15 minutes? Same for Leia. Kylo Ren doesn't even have that much screen time. If you're going to "continue and conclude the Skywalker saga" then make the Skywalkers the stars of the movies. As it turned out they were mostly sidelined. Just my opinion :eek:
     
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